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Impressive as these groups are, I think this thread is going the same way as countless other .22lr accuracy threads go. ("My 10/22 shoots 1" groups all day long of the bonnet of the Landy") Single groups, especially with a .22lr, and even more especially at extended ranges, may look impressive but I think 3-4 consecutive groups, as shown by Palo, Fourtyvoats, Silvermachine etc. are the truer measure of the rifle/ammo capabilities. Another problem, very apparent with the .22lr is that accuracy tends to degrade quite quickly with range. A C - C 1/2" group at 50 yards won't necessarily translate into 1" at 100 yds. Five shot groups: I can do this consistently if I discount the odd flyer.

Like most of us I've spent donkeys years shooting .22's and a good few of those years shooting NSRA prone competitions, along with most other shooters of the time, I very rarely cleaned the barrels of my rifles and seemed to do ok, never feeling that the rifles were letting me down. After a 30 year break in competition rimfire shooting I have been having a play are .22 bench rest - my view of barrel cleaning has now changed. I've found that after a deep clean of my BSA Mk5 International, the barrel (Using Eley Tenex) takes around 15-20 shots to regain accuracy - it continues shooting well for around 80-100 shots then the group starts to open out a little. This slight loss is enough to make a difference in benchrest shooting. The reality is 100 with 7 "X"'s will beat a 100 with 4 "x"'s. Years ago, when I was shooting prone, a ton was a ton and good enough. I would suggest you do some experiments to carefully select your ammunition and then experiment with cleaning - trying to eliminate as many variables as possible.

That's impressive, have you tried it at 100yds?

I'm sure this little video will put your mind at rest.

Sorry if I was straying a bit there, really just trying to point out that modifying a soft cast bullet is quite possible with fairly basic equipment. A soft cast bullet or ball gives a fairly consistent slug to start with. And completely off piste - I think the Westlake .357 will shoot just as well as an original .38 spl revolver with a bit of care and load development. The groups there were only the second time I've shot it, so right at beginning of load sorting. There's very little information about for the loads as most owners seem more interested in the "bang" factor than the accuracy factor. Some of the spread of the groups will be sighting error, the open sights, as supplied are much too fine for my old eyes and will need a little attention. Unfortunately I'm not able to use full wadcutters at my local range. Does it compare in quality with my old S&W Mod14 .38spec Masterpiece? No. Is it fun to shoot? Yes.

If anyone's interested, they shot fairly well in my revolver - quite comparable with the 158gn conventional cast bullets. Top group 158gn cast TC bullet/3gn Unique. Centre group the swaged slugs/3gn Unique. .. .357 6" Alfa/Westlake revolver, 20 yds, rested, open sights. Both groups 2"

I would hold back on melting and mixing the lead you have at the moment. As you say, some of it may well have tin/antimony etc. alloyed with it. Once it's mixed it can't be unmixed. Swaging usually requires soft lead, this is why you find swaged pistol bullets used for target shooting are low velocity and faster bullets are cast with additives to harden them. I would try and sort the lead with a hardness tester, you really need a Bhn number less than 10. Cast your soft pure lead into fingers or small ingots and the same with your hard lead - then you can work out the ratios in your melt pot to produce your "wire". For velocities below about 1,000 fps soft pure lead would be your best option. Increasing hardness exponentially increases the pressure required to swage.

Those last groups are really very good BD - Just discount the middle group with the cold barrel shot and the one you pulled.

I agree there Robin - I had for a long time an CM-2 Russian target rifle with a shortened barrel and screw cut for a moderator that shot very well for field use. The BSA Century was a bit of a half way house "target" rifle with a 5 shot magazine but that was introduced 60 years ago.

The Bergara obviously shoots well but would it be any better than a good P94s Finnfire, Tikka T1x, CZ457 etc. I really don't think any of them would give a good match rifle much of a run, I have a P94s with a Lilja match barrel and I know it wouldn't begin to compete with a match rifle. The Voodoo does seem to be a step ahead of the rest at the moment, but again a couple of good groups shown on a youtube clip doesn't tell much of a story. I'm really surprised there's not a well known winning combination out there somewhere - eg. CZ action/Walther match barrel/ aluminium/modular stock/Timney trigger.

So what we want is match rifle accuracy - magazine fed - not weighing a ton. Why is it so difficult? With the move towards thinner barrels and the use of tuners in top level .22lr benchrest competitions, weight shouldn't be too much of a problem. Magazine feeding may mean some compromise on perfect ignition due to firing pin shape and position. Good quality factory barrels are available as we see with Robins Walther KK500 and good quality match chamber reamers are available. There are some good actions and triggers available but we seem to have very few individuals who really specialize in building highly accurate .22lr rifles or better still highly accurate "off the peg" .22lr rifles at an affordable price. Good quality sporting .22lr rifles seem to have been stuck in the same accuracy rut for the last 40 years, giving around 1.25" to 1.5" at 100 yards, in the same period centerfire 100 yd group sizes have about halved.

😀😀

My old International still shoots quite well but couldn't begin to match that: Just 25 yards:

Excellent Robin - Just a whole new level of skill, accuracy and equipment there. Was the ammunition lot tested and is that an "off the peg" barrel or selected in some way? Do you shoot any 100 yds (Dewar) competitions? If so how do the 100 yds groups compare with the 50 yd groups?

Interesting to note how much better the Match quality ammunition is, I also think that at the longer ranges the difference is even more apparent. A fairly consistent .22 rifle/ammo combination that regularly shoots 1moa at 50 yards won't necessarily shoot regular 1moa groups at 100yds. When the velocity of even good quality match ammunition is measured it doesn't come close to good handloaded centrefire ammunition for consistency and as a percentage of it's speed it's even more disappointing. ie. a centrefire with an MV of 3,000fps with single figure ES and a .22lr Match at 1060 fps with an ES 30fps The better accuracy of the match quality ammunition show up in this short video where I compared 6 different types of ammunition - these were shot with a Russian CM2 single shot match rifle outside in breezy conditions at 65 yards. Of course a far from comprehensive test, as we've already said, a single group will tell us little, other than the ammunition can be eliminated from further trials and no cleaning/fouling shots between groups was carried out. (The caravan seen in the video is derelict and my base when I want a brew)

😀😀 The "flyer" is absolutely part of the group. I think a lot of these 1/4moa groups you regularly hear about are three shot affairs with the cold barrel shot and the flyer discounted.

Up until fairly recently you could check the actual figures for the Eley lot numbers and how they performed through the test barrels. Typing in the lot number, found on the box of Tenex and Match ammunition would give the number of rounds produced in that particular lot, the velocity ES and Ave. and the 10 shot group sizes shot through each individual barrel, also the 200 round group size shot through all barrels. Unfortunately the site has been down for some reason for around 6 months. https://eley.co.uk/find-the-perfect-batch-with-eleys-lot-analyser/ As 20series say - I find it quite amazing at the difference in various lot numbers and also I'm quite surprised at the small size of the lots - just 20 -30,000 at times. What I would like to see is a fairly run of the mill batch of Tenex with a 200 group ES of 18mm (These groups are all shot in fixed rests in a tunnel at 50 yards and groups are measured outside edge to outside.)Then the same batch fired through a hand lapped custom barrel with a well adjusted tuner under the same conditions and see how it performs I think we have a lot to learn about tuners and .22 accuracy.

I know these targets have been seen on here before and were shot some while ago but thought it might be some sort of starting point - also illustrates the point that a single selected group doesn't begin to tell the story. These were shot with my 40 year old Voere semi-auto using the old Eley sub 40gn HP's (Green box) at 68 yards - groups measured C to C.

This little chaps are .357 and weigh 100gns - They started life as a .44 cast soft lead ball and shoved through a Lee sizing with a standard press. I intend to try them in my .357 nitro muzzle loading revolver.

Well said - The next threat seems to be the call to ban all lead ammunition. The million or shot gun shooters mostly shrug their shoulder and it would seem some of their associations are actively promoting the idea - not much thought being given to .22 rimfire, muzzle loading or air gun shooters where there really is no acceptable alternative. But hey-ho, it won't effect me.

I've recently developed a dedicated Targetmaster sensor to fit the RCBS M500 scale - I have a sneaky suspicion that this will also fit the M1000 scale but don't have one available to measure. The sensor fits using the existing screw holes above the damper blade, so, has anyone got one they could measure the distance between the screw holes on the M1000 please.

Sorry chaps - Inbox sorted now.

Already in the post Bob.

Hi Bob - I don't know why you cant message me - maybe my inbox is full. I'll make some space and you can try again. Allan

Snap - I use a little White tail classic 1.5-5 x 20 on both a ,22lr and a .357 Winchester.