calibre advice for newbie.

[barndoor]

Hi everyone, the club I'm a member of has recently added more 900/1000yd shoots at Bisley & i was interested in attending these but don't have an adequate Rifle to use, I'm thinking of buying a Rifle more suitable for this but in what calibre? Should I stick with. 308 being a LR newbie? Would any 6-6.5mm's be too much for a beginner? Any advice welcome.

[DaveT]

In terms of sheer 'shootability' I would choose a 6.5 over a 30 cal every time as it will have a good bit less recoil and generally better ballistic performance (less drop etc) particularly over the longer ranges you indicate.

 

Its a BIG question though and one with many variables to consider.

 

If you settle upon F/TR as a discipline you will need to conform to the calibre restrictions that dictates.

[gbal]

The 308W has given good service,and will continue to do so,but itis outclassed these days as a 1000y club cartridge.

Mainly by its 'little' brother -the 260 Rem,which is the commercial version of the 308 case necked down to 6.5.It simply outperforms the 308,and is a little easier to shoot,having somewhat reduced recoil,despite its superior performance.It is also available in reasonably priced factory rifles. The 6.5x47Lapua is a close clone,but is essentially a custom (expensive) number,with no other advantage over the 260 rem for the club user. 260Rem is an easy reloading number.It's a top choice for tactical shooters too.

Others will add to the contenders-but if you are relatively new,best to stay with factory available,there is very little-if any-performance price,but considerably less outlay for rifle,and specialist reloading components. Yes,there are better 1000y cartridges and rifles,but they are correspondingly more expensive-two or three times more.

If at all possible,try before you buy-and check what advice you get against reliable ballistic data-and be aware that 'recoil' isn't a help-not a macho issue,just that a rifle that moves about more in recoil will lose some accuracy-one main reason that some 6mm are used,but 6.5 as above is a better all round option-and also very popular for mid range shooting-clubs often do rather more 600y than 1000y shooting.

 

gbal

[Jamie]

Apologies for hijacking briefly "barndoor"...

I'm also looking to join a club for longer range shooting. I've been reading old posts and the like...

I've been toying with a 6mm/.243, basically because of the availability and low recoil.

Is there that much more "real world" all round performance in a 6.5 compared to a .243/6mm?

Also, is there much more case capacity in the 6.5 compared to the 6mm?

Thanks.

Jamie

[gbal]

Jamie-any calibre can vary a fair bit,in terms of extreme case sizes.

But here we are focussing on sensible club longer range options for a new shooter.The 308w,260Rem and 243 win are in effect the same case(308) with the other two being "just necked down" calibres on that case-there isn't much real difference in useable case capacities.

The crucial difference is not powder,but BC of available bullets,and it is here that the 260/6.5 cartridges score well-the 123 and esp 140 g bullets can have very good BC,which is why they outshoot the 308(except for the juggernaut heavy 308 bullets,with pretty heavy recoil);the 6mm does quite well,and is the most 'shootable',but the 243 needs a rather fast twist to use the high BC 115Dtac bullets ,to be on something like equal terms.That fast twist makes it a custom rebarrel,and therefore expensive,compared to the same off the shelf 260rem rifle(or 308).Much the same is true for the plethora of similar niche 6mm wildcats-very few actually equal the 243,but are custom numbers (as is the fast twist 243 at its best).

The 260 factory makes a great deal of sense,unless you want to go custom costs(and even if you do,a custom 260 is as good as most-unless we get into specialist cartridges like 6-284,6.5 -284 or 7 Shehane,all custom of course.

 

gbal

That said,the standard factory varmint barrel 243 is a pretty impressive 600y cartridge.

[Jamie]

Jamie-any calibre can vary a fair bit,in terms of extreme case sizes.

But here we are focussing on sensible club longer range options for a new shooter.The 308w,260Rem and 243 win are in effect the same case(308) with the other two being "just necked down" calibres on that case-there isn't much real difference in useable case capacities.

The crucial difference is not powder,but BC of available bullets,and it is here that the 260/6.5 cartridges score well-the 123 and esp 140 g bullets can have very good BC,which is why they outshoot the 308(except for the juggernaut heavy 308 bullets,with pretty heavy recoil);the 6mm does quite well,and is the most 'shootable',but the 243 needs a rather fast twist to use the high BC 115Dtac bullets ,to be on something like equal terms.That fast twist makes it a custom rebarrel,and therefore expensive,compared to the same off the shelf 260rem rifle(or 308).Much the same is true for the plethora of similar niche 6mm wildcats-very few actually equal the 243,but are custom numbers (as is the fast twist 243 at its best).

The 260 factory makes a great deal of sense,unless you want to go custom costs(and even if you do,a custom 260 is as good as most-unless we get into specialist cartridges like 6-284,6.5 -284 or 7 Shehane,all custom of course.

 

gbal

That said,the standard factory varmint barrel 243 is a pretty impressive 600y cartridge.

Thanks George.

I'm a tad confused now though.

Where you said, "the 6mm does quite well,and is the most 'shootable',but the 243 needs a rather fast twist to use the high BC 115Dtac bullets ,to be on something like equal terms", I thought .243 was the same as a 6mm. I just thought it was a case of hopping from metric to imperial? I presume both have the same recoil, so I should specifically ask for a 6mm on my variation?

Thanks.

Jamie

[mikeroz]

Me I'd go for the 7mm 284 Winchester or 284 Shehane. Barrel life is circa 3000 rounds compared to the 6.5 x 284's 1200 rounds and higher Bullet BCs are available.

 

Read the article on 7mm calibres on accurateshooter.com

 

 

 

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/7mm/

[mikeroz]

Thanks George.

I'm a tad confused now though.

Where you said, "the 6mm does quite well,and is the most 'shootable',but the 243 needs a rather fast twist to use the high BC 115Dtac bullets ,to be on something like equal terms", I thought .243 was the same as a 6mm. I just thought it was a case of hopping from metric to imperial? I presume both have the same recoil, so I should specifically ask for a 6mm on my variation?

Thanks.

Jamie

Jamie,

Yes the 243 Winchester cartridge does indeed have a bullet diameter of 6mm. There are a number of cartridges that use the same diameter bullet as indeed there are in all other calibre barrels.

The reference to the twist rate was an explanation that should you wish to use the heavier 6mm bullets over lets say 105 grains then you will need a barrel with a faster twist than factory standard to stabilise the bullet. A minimum of 1 turn in 9 inches for A-Max 105s for example. The longer heavier bullets buck the wind much better over the longer ranges you were referring to such as 800 to 1000 yards/meters.

Ballistic Coefficient is a measure of how well a bullet bucks the wind. The higher the BC the better. There is a second dimension to this and that is to try and mantain velocities above the speed of sound within your prescribed range. Post subsonic performance is impaired. 308 can struggle with this unless you have a purpose built rig with a 30 or 32 inch barrel, but I'm by no means an expert and I'm sure someone more experienced can offer further advice.

ATB

Mike

[gbal]

Jamie,sorry I could have been clearer-243 is 6mm as a measure (or calibre).I should have said "the 6mm class of cartridge"and then for example,the 243 (a 6mm) needs fast twist to shoot best at LR).The 243 win is a specific cartridge that is 243(or 6mm)-there are plenty other 6mm cartridges,almost all with 6 in their name (6mmBR Norma eg is an excellent cartridge,and a contender as a do it all-but restricted in factory choices-its essentially a short necked down 308...6mm Remington is very similar to 243 win in performance,but quite rare in comparison....see Accurate Shooter site for multi 6mm-and other exotica-the 6-284 is a wildcat 6mm,but rather a different beast.Suchlike are somewhat specialised.

Best to put on your variation/application what you want -if you are sure-243 win will allow only 243 win;whereas "6mm' will allow any of the 6mm cartridges so named and indeed any 6mm calibre cartridge..note FAC uses calibre NOT cartridge,though cartridge is often specified(and indeed usually cartridge and calibre coincide. It can be a tad confusing,and once you allow wildcats,the complications just grow....and the 30 carbine cartridge eg is a relative pipsqueak compared to the 30-06,though both were contemporaneous US army cartridges...

So it pays to be careful/exact....we can't really say "6mm"s are less powerful than "30"s-many are,not all.

The best reply to any question like "are men more XYZ than women?" is "Just which man and which woman are we comparing". Likewise with cartridges especially if weasel words like 'better' are used -better in what way(s)?

I agree with Mike and like the Shehane,but it's not a first cartridge,unless money is relatively unlimited,or for the ambitious competitor.

g

[barndoor]

So depending on Bullet weight which would give the longest barrel life out of 6mmBR, 6.5BR, . 260rem & 6.5/284?

[gbal]

OK-at least they are all the same calibre-but won't be shooting-optimally-the same weight bullet.The best guide to barrel life from one factor is then given by just how much powder is being burned each shot (and 'how hot' that powder is-nitroglycerin/ 'double base' powders are hotter/wear barrels more and are more likely to be used in some cartridges (for extra velocity).That aside,its weight of powder,to first approximation..that toasts barrels.....no free lunches!

More powder,small bore is a classic recipe for barrel wear : "overbore" is the generic term for it,and one reason 'magnums' burn barrels-they use more powder than would be normal in that bore,so bore heats and cracks more/sooner-the absence of 'magnum' in the name does not mean that it isn't though,in effect-just compare powder loads in ,say,220 Swift with the 222 rem and guess which burns barrels faster....(oh,both are 224 calibre,by the way!!)

gbal

[mikeroz]

This is the article I suggested you read from accurateshooter.com

 

CALIBER CHOICE: The Case for the .284 Win

 

by Charles Ballard

 

Comparative Ballistics: 6.5-284, .284 Win, and 300 WSM

For shooters who are not sold on the .284 Winchester, I give you a real-world ballistics shoot-off. We comparison-tested a 6.5-284 rifle launching 142 SMKs at 2975 fps, a 300 WSM rifle firing 210 Bergers at 2850 fps, and my .284 Winchester shooting 180 Bergers at 2900 fps. We had three shooters and each rifle was fired simultaneously with no-wind zeros on three separate targets set at 1000 yards. The shooters then exchanged rifles and we repeated the test a couple times. The 6.5 and 300 stayed consistently within an inch of each other. But my .284, with its high-BC Berger 180s, shot inside both the 6.5 and 300 by at least 3″ every time. BC rules in the wind. I was sold!

 

Cost Comparison: .284 Win vs. 6.5-284

The cost of reloading the .284 Win is roughly $.07 more per round than that of the 6.5-284. The .284 uses a grain or two more powder than the 6.5-284, and 7mm bullets cost about $6.00 more per 100-count box. However, to truly compare the cost of shooting the two calibers you must figure in barrel life. My 6.5-284 barrel went south at 900 rounds. My .284 barrel now has 1,036 rounds, and by all indications it will shoot well to 3,000+ rounds. For cost comparisons sake, lets use 1,200 rounds for the 6.5-284 and 3,000 rounds for the .284 Win. The average cost of a barrel, chambered and fitted, is $500.00. Using these figures, the barrel cost of a .284 Win is $.17 per round vs. $.42 per round for the 6.5-284. That’s a $.25 per round difference, equivalent to a 60% savings for the .284.

 

OK, if we now net the barrel cost savings (-$.25) for the .284 with the higher cost of 7mm reloading components (+$.07), I figure the .284 Win costs $.18 per round LESS to shoot than the 6.5-284. Over the span of 3,000 rounds, that’s a $540.00 saving.

[gbal]

MIke-Ballard's claims led to a real interest in the 284,with which I have no quarrel (indeed like the Shehane).But for someone newish to club LR shooting it does raise some questions about just how do you get a 284-its hardly a common factory cartridge(even the 284W88 didn't sell).

 

Isn't the 284 rather a specialised-though competent -competitor's option,a good one for FClass open,etc

If it were reasonably available, worth considering (6.5x284 isn't,nor 300 WSM etc etc) given the OP context-(and all the expensive reloading gear to make it work well...)...single shot......just a thought....

 

gbal

[mikeroz]

Fair comment Gbal, it would require a degree of personal investment both in reloading gear & time, which possibly isn't best for a beginner, but I was thinking possibly incorrectly that anyone interested in shooting 800 to 1000 yards would be unlikely to be using factory ammunition, if for no other reason than to save money. The quantities x price per round required for target shooting being the reasoning behind my logic.

Both 243 & 308 are cracking cartridges. I have both & have shot them for nearly 25 years and in that time I've only ever bought 20 factory 243 RWS rounds, all others have been home loads. If I knew then what I know now I would have a 284 win now. Only drawback I can see is extra recoil (but I only shot with moderator and like a heavy rifle) and the slight restriction on COAL in short action magazines. Obviously not an issue in single shot actions.

[The Gun Pimp]

So much advice coming in that I'm reluctant to burden you down Barndoor with even more.

 

To some extent this has become a "what's the best 1000 yard cartridge" and ignoring the fact that you are a novice and you want to BUY a rifle for 1000 yard shooting which will perform reasonably well.

 

284 Win has been suggested - but who makes one? No factory rifles............. and, many other factory rifles in 243, 6.5x55 etc. don't really have a long enough barrel for 1000 yard shooting - unless you just want to plink.

 

Forget the 6mm cartridges - I shoot a 6XC at all ranges out to a 1000 yards in F Class but that's my choice. I'm done with the WSMs and accept that my 105gn bullet will get blown to hell on a windy day. Benchrest aside, 6mm is not a novice long-range cartridge.

 

So, let's have a look at factory rifles. For me, there are perhaps two available, at modest cost, off the shelf. Both are made by Savage - their 308 FTR rifle and the 6.5-284 Benchrest. For the novice, the 308 would be the easiest option to load for and would give great barrel life and that 30 inch barrel is perfect for 1000 yards. We must have half a dozen of them at Diggle - some winning matches.

 

If you feel a bit more adventurous, go for the 6.5-284 - it will outperform most of the suggested cartridges including the 308. It's a lot easier to 'tune' than the 284 and quality brass is available off the shelf.

 

Funnily enough, we had a new shooter at Diggle facing the same dilemma - he eventually got the 6.5-284 Savage and he has already won his first 1000 yd comp.!

[terryh]

BarnDoor

 

One thing not mentioned when considering the cartridge are the existing range rules.

 

If you choose a cartridge 'with the potential' to exceed the lower energy limit then you have to go off and 'qualify' your rifle everytime you go and shoot, you might also find that this cartridge is also not on your local range's list of permisable ones?

 

Also consider how many times you will actually shoot 1000 yards, if it is only once or twice a year then do not compramise your main shooting availability with a rifle that is brilliant at 1000 then is totally wasted, burning powder and barrels, at your regular distances.

 

Just some thoughts before expense?

 

T

[gbal]

Barndoor,there is snsible advice/suggestions in all the replies-I think we are covering most bases,and advice might be better honed to yo if we knew a bit more about just what realistically you want/need.A couple of 1000y shoots-for me-would not justify a specialised 6.5x284,though as Vince notes,you do not have to pay a full custom price.

Like Mike,I've shot 308 and 243 for decades,never bought any factory ammo,but I'd now choose 260 as better than both.You do not need very expensive equipment to load vey good ammo-just attention to detail. The 6mms are too restrictive-or specialised,if you want to be kinder.

A 308 only makes sense if you restrict your shooting to Fclass which has this rather false restriction on cartridges(308,223).F class open is a different proposition,but then is best attempted with more specialised gear-maybe the future,though of course you can take part without top gear,but ypu don't want to be wearing out any custom beauty just 'plinkin' informally at your club-unless you are prepared to replace barrels regularly.

So,initial costs and thereafter might come in-you might be happily not so constrained.Even so,I'd still consider a good across your shooting cartridge like the 260,and think about a more specialised 1000y rig if you really get the bug-and the opportunities (this is quite likely!) Don't forget to factor in a perhaps upgraded scope-a Sightron S111 8-32 is a pretty good one,much more affordable than say Night Force.

Meanwhile,as per Mike's advice,read Accurate Shooter site,remembering this is geared to the serious no costs barred shooter,and the superb rifles are not necessary,though very nice to work towards.

It is clear there is plenty choice-and you may need some yourself-I can't see a 30 inch single shot being the most enjoyable tool for McQueen type 300 ish snap shooting (but a magazine fed 260 would be)....

Perhaps too,you already have a mid range rifle,if so then that opens up the long range budget/focus..if I had to reduce to two non varmint rifles,it would be a 260 and a 7 Shehane; (the varmint would be a 6ppc),and despite feeling relatively deprived,there isn't much UK shooting (other than Fclass,which isn't an interest-if it was,308 rather than 260) that I could not have a pretty enjoyable go at with those (substitute any in the same class-eg 6.5x47 for 260 if you wish).It is really about that simple,but it's also enjoyable to complicate/compromise a bit too,as most of us indulge ourselves.

gbal

[Shuggy]

Hi everyone, the club I'm a member of has recently added more 900/1000yd shoots at Bisley & i was interested in attending these but don't have an adequate Rifle to use, I'm thinking of buying a Rifle more suitable for this but in what calibre? Should I stick with. 308 being a LR newbie? Would any 6-6.5mm's be too much for a beginner? Any advice welcome.

I think that the contributors have missed two rather obvious questions. Do you reload and what is your budget? There aren't too many off the shelf options for rifles or ammunition in 6-6.5mm 'accuracy calibres'. If you are going down the custom+reloading route then there are many good options. A good off the shelf option would probably be a Tikka T3 in 6.5x55.

[Brillo]

As per The Gun Pimp, I'm also reluctant to give MHO, but from one who has recently (within the past 2/3 years) made the excursion into long range shooting in general and F Class and F T/R, it is prudent I pass on my experience.

 

My factory .308 rifle, a Sako TRG-22, was great up to 800 yards but would not hold a candle to the guys shooting custom/semi-custom rifles with 30 to 32" barrels. Now that I have one of the latter I'm able to shoot at 1000 yards with some confidence. The point is that the .308 is fine if you can find a rifle with a barrel of at least 30" and you will need that calibre if you ever think you will want to compete in F T/R.

 

I also own a .284 and this does everything I would expect it to do. It gets to 1000 yards with ease and is very accurate. But to echo The Gun Pimp I don't know of a factory .284 rifle. A lot of top class F Class shooters use this calibre.

 

The same can be said of the 6.5x47. It is a joy to shoot and incredibly accurate but the only factory rifle I know worth considering is an AI specifically chambered for this cartridge.

 

As you will be going to Bisley on what seems like regular basis, I suggest you talk to as many shooters as you can and get to know more about the different calibres being used.

 

The big thing is to make sure you get it right first time because, as someone wrote on here a couple of posts back, getting rid of a rifle is an absolute pain in the neck.

[barndoor]

I looked on accurateshooter.com & found barrel life quotes, 6br 3000rds, 6.5/284 1000rds, .308 4/5000rds, couldn't find anything on .260rem! 6.5/284 wouldn't be viable for me if you only get 1000 odd rds out of it, i'm reluctant to buy a specialist fast calibre second hand as the tube could be a 1/3rd the way through its life.

My midrange rifle is a steyr ssg but only has a 20in tube so I keep it for 600yds, all my other rifles ive used the last 15yrs are 50-100yr old service rifles, .303's 7.5x55's etc.

The savage rifles interest me as does the tikka T3 sporter with 24.75in tube, although this looks like a T3 varmint in a laminate stock it is available in .260rem.

Cheers for all the advice, I know its a bit of a hard question as there's so many variables.

[mikeroz]

http://www.dolphinguncompany.co.uk/index.php/rifles/new-dolphin-nesika-ftr-rifle

 

Barndoor,

You haven't said what your budget is or whether you want repeater or single shot, at least I can't recollect, however the dolphin gun company Custom FT/R is in my humble opinion a very good deal, considering from what I can gather Mic Macsimovic's super customer service, excellent in shop stock and quick turnaround on builds.

Yes, I know it can not be described as a cheap rifle, but still excellent value for money nonetheless, and brand new, not somebody's secondhand gat.

[The Gun Pimp]

Don't get too wound-up on barrel-life Barndoor. I shoot F Class EVERY two weeks - that comes to about 550 rounds per year, so most barrels will go a couple of years at least. There aren't many casual shooters who've shot a barrel out.

 

Having said that, a couple of us have burnt 308 barrels out in around 1000 rounds using FTR loads and double-base powder.

[Chris-NZ]

...looks like a T3 varmint in a laminate stock it is available in .260rem....

 

 

You could do a lot worse than that. Sure, it won't keep up with the Shehanes at 1000 in decent wind but would be highly respectable in most conditions. Relatively mild shooting and the barrel should go a good 2500/possibly 3000 rounds unless you feed it hot fodder.

 

I was actually shooting F-class yesterday against a guy using a plain .260 with 139 Scenars in a GRS stock and it was going well. Both of us got 60s at 500yds in switchy conditions (I was shooting my 6x47L). That range only goes to 600yds and we were basically equal there. I haven't shot mine at 900/1000 yet but know it's not gonna be in the hunt against the big boomers.

[bradders]

 

 

You could do a lot worse than that. Sure, it won't keep up with the Shehanes at 1000 in decent wind but would be highly respectable in most conditions. Relatively mild shooting and the barrel should go a good 2500/possibly 3000 rounds unless you feed it hot fodder.

 

I was actually shooting F-class yesterday against a guy using a plain .260 with 139 Scenars in a GRS stock and it was going well. Both of us got 60s at 500yds in switchy conditions (I was shooting my 6x47L). That range only goes to 600yds and we were basically equal there. I haven't shot mine at 900/1000 yet but know it's not gonna be in the hunt against the big boomers.

He's just talking about going along to the odd LR club shoot and a .260 will be fine, moreso if it's just a club outing and not a competition.

Why not just go along with what you already have?

Last time I shot 1k I used my .223 with 80 JLK's and had as much fun as I needed

[Jamie]

He's just talking about going along to the odd LR club shoot and a .260 will be fine, moreso if it's just a club outing and not a competition.

Why not just go along with what you already have?

Last time I shot 1k I used my .223 with 80 JLK's and had as much fun as I needed

Bradders, I presume your .223 is a 1in 8 or less, could you tell me what loads your using for the 80's?

Jamie