A-Max's now classed as 'expanding'?

[terryh]

Gents,

 

Just had a club member on the phone. He went to order some some more 155g A-Max;s from his usual gun shop to be told they cannot supply them as they are now classed as expanding. He called Devon and Cornwall firearms dept to be told that this is the case and they cannot be used for range use as per his license. He went back to them with details of the difference between 'A' and 'V' Max but to no avail.

 

Before I go calling them on Tuesday has anyone else come across this?

 

Cheers

 

Terry

[Gandy]

I've not heard this and as I've got expanding ammunition it foes not affect me save I've always previously had them posted its now going to be a hassle.

 

I always thought it was one of those big bones of contention where people argue if they are expanding or not, I think they expand very well.

 

It would be interesting to know who classifies ammo as expanding or to police or manufactures?

[devilishdave]

I've not heard this and as I've got expanding ammunition it foes not affect me save I've always previously had them posted its now going to be a hassle.

 

I always thought it was one of those big bones of contention where people argue if they are expanding or not, I think they expand very well.

 

It would be interesting to know who classifies ammo as expanding or to police or manufactures?

 

 

Fair one, they expand as well as sst!!

 

Dave

[AnthonyR]

I think you will find that A-Max and V-Max in the same calibre and weight are actually the same bullet and were just renamed to get around the Exp regs, hence why they are now being reclassified as Exp. There is a thread on another forum where Hornady basically confirmed that there is no difference.

[1967spud]

what about people with 1000 amaxs sitting on their shelf and only being allowed to hold 400 expanding projectiles

[andybrock]

what about people with 1000 amaxs sitting on their shelf and only being allowed to hold 400 expanding projectiles

 

I guess this is another example of "grey area" as long as you only have 400 loaded rounds and the other 600 are just heads then I would think you would be within the law.

 

Andy

[terryh]

Loooks like I'm going to have to do some digging?

 

Andy,

 

I think you'll find that a loaded round, an expanding bullet and a primed case are all classed as 'rounds' as far as your FAC limits are concerned, your total of the three items must be less than your FAC maximum amount.

 

T

[brown dog]

Dredging my memory here; but the key phrase here is something like 'designed to expand'.

If it isn't 'designed' to expand then it isn't, in our crazy Law, an expanding bullet.

If the manufacturer puts the polycarbonate tip on an Amax for target-shooting ballistic reasons and not with the intention of making it an expanding bullet, then it's not -in UK Law- an expanding bullet.

 

This must be a licensing department going 'off piste'...... if not HPBT will, be next

[andybrock]

Loooks like I'm going to have to do some digging?

 

Andy,

 

I think you'll find that a loaded round, an expanding bullet and a primed case are all classed as 'rounds' as far as your FAC limits are concerned, your total of the three items must be less than your FAC maximum amount.

 

T

 

Terry,

 

This is what I meant by a grey area, when I had my fac renewed recently the FLO said as far as they were concerned (and this is Cheshire)that it only contributed to your FAC quantities when the round was constructed and he didn't really know why there was a limit on how many bullet heads you could buy especially when you can purchase as much powder,primers and cases as you liked.

 

Andy

[terryh]

Matt,

 

Agree with the conceptual idea but a bit of trawling and it appears this cropped up a few years ago, BASC legal/firarms became involved and obtained the statement from Hornady was that the A-Max is designed to expand, and passed on to thier member that in their opinion the A-max is expanding i.e. section 5, but this was in 2006.

 

I need to find out if this was a 'local' issue or a true national one from general interest (am planning on using 7mm A-max's in a new build) also I've just obtained a 1000 A-max's for my father and nothing was noted from the RFD, or myself on any license, I simply handed them over to him, if Kent police and D&C police have this policy then he and I are in the poo - being right has no merit in law

 

Hopefully this is a 'resolved' matter but my local plod do not see it that way and that's who I have to deal with.

 

Andy,

I can see what the FLO means but here's the logic, if you have to log the purchase of expanding bullets on your cert and you can only purchase up to your maximum stated 'one buy' limit then you should comply with the maximum posses quantity also. Otherwise what is the point of putting the limits on your cert or even listing expanding bullets as an entry?

 

Terry

[kent]

Terry,

 

This is what I meant by a grey area, when I had my fac renewed recently the FLO said as far as they were concerned (and this is Cheshire)that it only contributed to your FAC quantities when the round was constructed and he didn't really know why there was a limit on how many bullet heads you could buy especially when you can purchase as much powder,primers and cases as you liked.

 

Andy

 

Is it not down to the section 5 exemption that hunters FAC carry and target lads do not? I had this out with lancs a few years back when i aquired rather a lot of 155 scenar heads

[kent]

Terry,

 

This is what I meant by a grey area, when I had my fac renewed recently the FLO said as far as they were concerned (and this is Cheshire)that it only contributed to your FAC quantities when the round was constructed and he didn't really know why there was a limit on how many bullet heads you could buy especially when you can purchase as much powder,primers and cases as you liked.

 

Andy

 

Is it not down to the section 5 exemption that hunters FAC carry and target lads do not? I had this out with lancs a few years back when i aquired rather a lot of 155 scenar heads

[gazzar15]

Primed cases do NOT count as a loaded round. As an example what authority do you require to buy blanks???

[snc_2010]

Just to help keep us on an accurate track:

 

Deer Act - "...soft nose or hollow point..."

Firearms Act - "...designed to expand..."

[LONG RANGE CAPT]

This chap went down real quick with a .308 155gr A-MAX.

 

When I used A-MAX I found the rounds would dump their energy very quickly, but disintegrate.

 

[forbie]

I think you will find that an expanding head is counted as a ROUND of AMMUNITION same as a loaded magazine in the vehicle with you and the gun is classed a LOADED GUN.

[snc_2010]

I think you will find that an expanding head is counted as a ROUND of AMMUNITION same as a loaded magazine in the vehicle with you and the gun is classed a LOADED GUN.

 

Regarding a loaded magazine being a loaded gun, I've not yet seen this written in law or even in guidance (I've heard it many times from people that seem to want to make their own and other people's lives harder by spreading lazy misinformation before doing any actual checking though). Until I see it in law (I'd be grateful if you would direct me to it please) I'll be sticking with loaded mags.

 

 

P.S. I reckon that the loaded mag = loaded gun thing probably passed into the misuse exhibited above from a military procedure or something. Easily done if you don't identify and differentiate between forms of authority.

[brown dog]

Regarding a loaded magazine being a loaded gun, I've not yet seen this written in law or even in guidance (I've heard it many times from people that seem to want to make their own and other people's lives harder by spreading lazy misinformation before doing any actual checking though). Until I see it in law (I'd be grateful if you would direct me to it please) I'll be sticking with loaded mags.

 

It's a product of 'case Law' ...just as the fact that the inside of your car is a 'public place'. That's the trouble with not having a constitution; a bunch of unelected self-interested and removed-from-reality former-lawyers (now judges) get to steer UK plc through their own peculiar interpretations of the letter of the written Law

[terryh]

OK, update on original questions ‘Amax are expanding ammunition.

 

Contacted D&C firearms dept. eventually spoke with someone who understood the question and knew the history.

 

Yes, as far as D&C firearms licensing dept A-max bullets are classed as expanding bullets i.e. requiring this condition on a FAC and also cannot be used on MOD ranges i.e. for target application as it states they are designed to expand on Hornady’s web site (more of this later).

 

This was actually brought to D&C’s firearms dept. attention by a D&C RFD (what a ######!!) and so they had to act.

 

I pointed out that this put FAC holder in an awkward position – basically they agreed but ‘hard luck’ to challenge this you’d need to go to court. They would have previously put this to the national forensic lab but this is now closed so they have to go with the manufacturer’s advertised statement on design – I cannot argue with this.

 

They will be/have contacted the NRA over this, but the guy I spoke with was not sure how far this has progressed. D&C will be putting this out to the D&C RFD’s.

 

Looked on the Hornady web site and indeed it does state A-max’s are designed to expand, see here: http://www.hornady.com/bullets.

 

Terry

[TonyH]

...as far as D&C firearms licensing dept A-max bullets are classed as expanding bullets i.e. requiring this condition on a FAC and also cannot be used on MOD ranges i.e. for target application as it states they are designed to expand on Hornady's web site (more of this later).

Hi Terry. I wonder how long they have held this view? I have had A-Max bullets in .224" in the past, and never had problems with RFDs wanting to see my ticket first.

 

This was actually brought to D&C's firearms dept. attention by a D&C RFD (what a ######!!) and so they had to act.

What a ###### indeed! It never ceases to amaze and depress me, the extent to which so many RFDs - perhaps especially in this part of the world - want to bend over backwards (or forwards...) to accommodate any and every dubious or downright extra-legal "policy" dreamed up by the police. Truly pitiful.

 

I really despise this situation. It is almost beyond belief that so much time is expended, by police and by Her Majesty's subjects, having to deal with this sort of pointless moronic crap, and that someone, somewhere (Westminster anyone?) ever thought that it might improve public safety one iota to attempt to control the types of bullet we can buy freely. I dare say there are still bits of the UK where this contemptibly stupid ruling hasn't taken hold yet? I think I'll look around and buy some A-Maxes there, just for the hell of it...

Tony

[skany]

Hi terry

 

can u poit me to where they say they are designed to expand?

 

all i can see is referanace to "match" 7 not recomended for medium/large game!!

 

weird!

 

cheers ANdy

[John MH]

Never used A-Max bullets before but the 'Rapid, explosive expansion with limited penetration' statement on the Hornady Website does kind of say it all.

[rabbit fingers]

.

[terryh]

FFS!

 

OK, rang Hornady, spoke to their technical department asked simple question - are A-max's designed to expand? answer 'oh yes most definitly'.

 

If I can do this so can the plod!!

 

Terry

[Davy]

Does it say expanding on the side of the box? It doesn't on my oldish155's and my FEO said he had not heard anything about it either. Confusing or what........