Which 20 cal?

[TonyH]

I've had decent advice here already (thanks Ian & Alan esp.) about 20 Practical, but here's a query: I can see the advantage over Tac20 in terms of forming brass a bit more easily and using a standard 223 bushing die, but are there other advantages? I mean, I haven't got the best .223 dies anyway so I'd need to shell out for a top Redding or RCBS die set whether I went for Tac or Prac…

And the same applies to 20BR - yes, I've looked at the back threads here about this calibre and they make interesting reading.

The thing is, I'll either have my Winchester Featherweight .223 rebarrelled to Tac or Prac - or, following last night's research into case-head sizes etc, a slightly more radical option is to have my 22-250 Rem700VS varminter re-barrelled to 20BR. Yes, I know the only brass options are Norma or Lapua, but I'd be buying top brass anyway if I got a custom Prac or Tac, makes sense to use the best bits available when spending all that dosh on 'smithing.

Clearly the BR has more poke, but for those who've used these in the field (I'm not a target shooter) what do you think of these three calibres in relation to one another? I'm tossing ideas round, scribbling cost/practicality factors on paper, so any input is very welcome.

Regards, TonyH

[varmartin]

I only have experiance of .223 and 6BR in the field....but

 

I would re tube the 22-250 , as the tube will be shot out way before the .223. making it the most cost effective.

 

The 20BR sounds like a stunning option and Lapua 6BR Norma brass should last a very long time.

[Scotch_egg]

I have been through this same dilema.

 

I looked at the .20br but wasn't interested in having to neck turn and case form, this is not practical given the amount of use and number of rounds I will shoot, this will be my primary rifle. The .20br is in its element with the 50gr bullets again something not required by me. I can save 5gr powder per round by looking at the .223 based rounds.

 

I looked at the .20 ppc after reports from Nick on this site, again case forming put me off and on speaking to Nick he said he would consider the ease of the .223 based rounds.

 

This left me with the .20 Tac and the practical. Very similar rounds.

 

After many many pm's from Alled, great bloke to talk to, I ended up going with the .20 Tac. Only reason being I was starting from scratch. I could have .20 Tac head stamps in my brass cos I was buying brand new kit, I liked the sharper shoulder so I can get a little more powder in, this will help with my 18 inch barrel

 

My barrel has yet to land so I cannot offer any real world advice yet.

 

What ever you go for in the end I don't think it will under perform.

[TonyH]

I only have experiance of .223 and 6BR in the field....but

 

I would re tube the 22-250 , as the tube will be shot out way before the .223. making it the most cost effective.

 

The 20BR sounds like a stunning option and Lapua 6BR Norma brass should last a very long time.

Thanks Martin, good argument. Yes, 20BR sounds a very impressive round, lots of bang for the buck. I'll keep on thinking.

Cheers, TonyH

[TonyH]

...I looked at the .20br but wasn't interested in having to neck turn and case form, this is not practical given the amount of use and number of rounds I will shoot, this will be my primary rifle. The .20br is in its element with the 50gr bullets again something not required by me. I can save 5gr powder per round by looking at the .223 based rounds...

Good points, thanks. Re powder, the BR certainly burns more than the .223-based rounds, but less than my 22-250 with the benefit of better BC bullets. I don't think there's any case forming entailed - it just requires the 6mmBR case to be necked down slightly to .204". I don't mind neck turning, accustomed to that and it's only a one-off - the Lapua brass should last well as Varmartin says. Ideally I'd like to shoot both the 40gr (probably Nosler or SBK) and the Berger 50gr for maximum long range potential - the latter especially is reckoned to give 700-800 yard potential.

 

This left me with the .20 Tac and the practical. Very similar rounds.

After many many pm's from Alled, great bloke to talk to, I ended up going with the .20 Tac. Only reason being I was starting from scratch....

Yes, Alled knows lots about this and is helpful! I too would be starting from scratch which IMO removes the advantage of Prac - and I agree about the steeper shoulder.

Thanks, TonyH

[17 Rem]

If neck turning puts you off most wildcats (and it certainly does me), dasherman has a 20-250 reamer. Case forming can be just a single pass through a 22-250 Redding bushing die with 20 calibre decapping rod and .231" bushing (although it's a little easier to do it as a 2 step operation with .236" bushing first). A standard 22-250 seater works just fine. Less hassle than a 20BR.

[baldie]

Scotch....i think you will regret putting an 18" barrel on any .20 mate. You wont burn a full charge, even with the fastest powder, infact, any advantage the ackley type case would have given you, will be lost.

[Scotch_egg]

my only goal will be to push the 39gr BK's above 3700fps. I was hoping N133 would do that, I have a rather large muzzle mounted mod I need to account for!!!

 

Would quick load be able to calculate the achievable outcome?

[baldie]

My last .204 would only push a 32 grain v-max at that speed from a 22" tube. That was with 4895 powder. I would say you are asking too much.

There is a part of quickload that can calculate burn rate per inch of barrel length, and its pretty accurate.

[Vermincinerator]

I'm with baldie on this, i too think a 18" barrel is to short to get a complete burn, i thought about the same for my future Vartarg project, even with a case that only holds about 17grns i figured 20" is the shortest i could go

 

Ian.

[Scotch_egg]

I was going off these figures from Bulberry and a little luck.......

 

Think they may have been the 32gr used in testing, not had a reply yet to confirm.

 

http://www.bullberry.com/204Rugerdata.html

[Scotch_egg]

I was also going off the level of success that 20ppc Nick off here has had.

[20Tac]

I disagree with some on the barrel length question - in fact I think 18" would be a good choice in Tac .20. The actual trajectory difference at 300 yards would be less than 1 inch. Beyond that distance you would have to dial in anyway, so a few more fps is totally academic when shooting vermin, and you would have all the handling benefits of a short set up. .20 calibres are not for target shooting anyway. My Tac .20 is currently 22" but I will be cutting it down to at least 18" at some stage.

[Scotch_egg]

Forgot to say I only need 3600fps to achieve the quoted .287 ballistic coefficient.

[20Tac]

Forgot to say I only need 3600fps to achieve the quoted .287 ballistic coefficient.

 

To hazard a guess I would say that a Tac .20 should do 3600fps with 10X from an 18" barrel (based on the performance of mine @ 22"). Don't forget that a .22-250 won't do much more than 3600fps with 55gr bullets (bc .267) - and I 've never heard people complain about the trajectory of that combination!

[garyw]

tony-i had a tact .20 dakota predator for 3 yrs one very accurate rifle i touched 4000fps with a 32vmx and rel10x but got a little pressure so had it running round 3900 easy to form lapua brass or you can buy it formed-then like a numpty i got tired of it and got a .22br.

the .20practical will give you about the same velocity as .20tact but with the advantage of no forming of the brass one run through the die load and shoot.

as suggested the 20-250 is another option but you need to burn 37-41gns of given powder to get to tact.20 velocity a bit of a barrel burner methinks.

the other 2 options are .20br a very accurate round with low powder charges -good brass long barrel life or there is the .20ppc i was toying with a custom build about 4 yrs ago but all the bits cost a lot for what i wanted and more case prep than i wanted so i got the 20tact.

the other better option is the .20vartarg not the best brass in the world but the trade off is low powder charges long brass life very accurate no teeth rattling recoil and very long barrel life.

 

so not a lot to think about really

come on make your mind up!

[alled12]

Tony

My 20 Prac is going over the chrony this friday I will let yo uknow what I am achieving from it with N133, I am running the accuracy load which is 25 grains of said powder, I will let you know what barrel length I have as I have forgotten. Trouble with 20-250 is that you are not going to get much more than 20br for a lot more powder. It would seem like a bit of a waste, 20br doesnt need neck turning providing you get the right chamber cut. The new 55 grain bergers would be stunning in that setup. Once you have a 20 you will want more, a warning Tony lol. Nick has the 20ppc and from what I hear its is an absolute tac driver. Good luck with this one.

[jordang]

I have a 20TAC with 26" barrel. Only running a mild load at the mo as its very accurate (40vmax/23gr N133) but I will be trying to get as much vel as possible out of some 32 vmaxs.... may aswell make the most of the barrel Ive had no problems with the 40's at this speed though (not chrono'd but should work about 3500-3600), so if you can get it out of a short barrel you wont be disapointed.

 

I think I would either look at the 20PPC with a short barrel or a 22BR with nice long tube if I was to change... that said I dont intend to change anytime soon!! The 20TAC is a very accomplished round imo

[Vermincinerator]

I was going off these figures from Bulberry and a little luck.......

 

Think they may have been the 32gr used in testing, not had a reply yet to confirm.

 

http://www.bullberry.com/204Rugerdata.html

 

Interesting article, from that i would guess that a mod screwed on the muzzle would contain a lot of the blast the author experienced during the tests as the barrel got below 20"

 

Ian.

[Alycidon]

I have had 22.250 and now use big heavy and long 20BR set up for the 50gr Bergers. Far nicer set up, you can use a no neck turn reamer if you want but of course there is no factory ammo. I use about 28.5gr of powder (N150), gives about 3600 with a 39gr BK and 3400 with the 50gr Berger. Not actually chroned the 39gr load yet but it put crows into 3 pieces unlike the 50 which tends to drill them.

 

I would certainly rebarrel a 22.250 to 20BR when it came to retube time, just be aware though that normally they don't feed from mags well. . If you choose to re tube the 223 instead also look at the 20 Vartarg, thats a spanking little round in an ultra light package.

 

A

[TonyH]

...as suggested the 20-250 is another option but you need to burn 37-41gns of given powder to get to tact.20 velocity a bit of a barrel burner methinks...

I've come across 20-250 but frankly I wouldn't consider it - no powder saving compared with 22-250, just as noisy, probably limited barrel life as you say, and there are far more efficient 20-cal rounds available.

 

the other better option is the .20vartarg not the best brass in the world but the trade off is low powder charges long brass life very accurate no teeth rattling recoil and very long barrel life...

yes, this is a very attractive round but max practical range is a bit more limited than with other 20-cals.

Thanks for the input - TonyH

[TonyH]

Tony

My 20 Prac is going over the chrony this friday I will let yo uknow what I am achieving from it with N133, I am running the accuracy load which is 25 grains of said powder, I will let you know what barrel length I have as I have forgotten. Trouble with 20-250 is that you are not going to get much more than 20br for a lot more powder. It would seem like a bit of a waste, 20br doesnt need neck turning providing you get the right chamber cut. The new 55 grain bergers would be stunning in that setup. Once you have a 20 you will want more, a warning Tony lol. Nick has the 20ppc and from what I hear its is an absolute tac driver. Good luck with this one.

Thanks Alled, look forward to hearing your chrono result. N133 worked very well for me in .222 - I wonder if you've tried Benchmark in 20Prac? It's around a similar burning rate I think, maybe a little slower. Yes, the 50gr Berger seems to have excellent ballistics in 20BR and I guess the 55 will do even better though it's not what everyone would choose for a varminting bullet.

Regards, Tony

[TonyH]

...I would certainly rebarrel a 22.250 to 20BR when it came to retube time, just be aware though that normally they don't feed from mags well. . If you choose to re tube the 223 instead also look at the 20 Vartarg, thats a spanking little round in an ultra light package.

 

A

Thanks A, handy powder comments. Magazine feeding wouldn't bother me since I load single rounds anyway, in fact I wish there were more single-shot actions readily available since they ought to be stiffer than actions with all that cut-out material. The Vartarg, yes, v nice though I classify it along with e.g. 17 Fireball and similarly find it slotted by others into the sub-300 yard category.

All good food for thought!

Cheers, Tony

[pat]

The 18" barrel plays havoc with available options. The only thing that seems to work out as being half-sane is a 20PPC, and it won't be wonderfully efficient at that. Nevertheless it does appear, on paper at least, capable of launching a 39gn Sierra Blitzking (assuming that's what the 0.287 BC above 3600 was a reference to) at 3600fps out of an 18" barrel, thanks in no small part to the short fat powder column and the availability of decent brass from Lapua which will take a bit of pressure

 

A viable solution, on paper at least, seems to be 27.1gn of IMR 3031 in a 20PPC case (a slightly compressed load) behind a 39gn BK with its shank seated 150 thou into the neck, yielding an OAL of 2.035". Chamber pressure seems to be around 55,600 PSI. Seating 200 thou will result in an increase in pressure, and a more compressed charge, but still viable if there is insufficient freebore to accommodate the longer OAL.

 

As another option, Winchester 748 should also yield 3600fps when 28.9gn is used with the same 2.035" OAL but pressure will be higher at 57,600PSI. At the shorter OAL the pressure climbs to just under 60,000PSI, perhaps not the wisest option!

 

Interestingly enough, 20BR seems incapable of getting to 3600 out of an 18" barrel without excessive pressure. Guess that the increased capacity really only works out for heavier bullets and longer barrels... Similarly none of the smaller cases seem capable of 3600 out of 18", pressure just climbs too quickly...

 

Hope this helps,

 

Pat.

[Alycidon]

[nterestingly enough, 20BR seems incapable of getting to 3600 out of an 18" barrel without excessive pressure. Guess that the increased capacity really only works out for heavier bullets and longer barrels... Similarly none of the smaller cases seem capable of 3600 out of 18", pressure just climbs too quickly...

 

Hope this helps,

 

Pat.

 

 

Not done all the development work yet for 20BR but the BR case does allow use of slower powders giving somewhat lower pressures. For the 39-40 gr then the PPC case is best, for the 50s then the BR case. I can e mail pics of a crow in 3 bits, a fox with a front leg held on by 2 sinews only, another with most of its head missing, that is at 3600 or so with a SBK. But my barrell is 27" so plenty of burn time.

 

Got a feeling that 20PPC runs his on a pretty short barrell, might be worth talking to him.

 

A