Barrel Blanks from the USA

[Vermincinerator]

"we do have a slightly lower base price for overseas customers so that it encourages the sales."

 

Lee

 

I rest my case.

 

Ian.

[TonyH]

...we do have a slightly lower base price for overseas customers so that it encourages the sales....Lee

A slightly lower base price for UK customers would seem more fair since it's a UK-made product, and it would certainly encourage sales to this UK customer! We already pay grossly inflated prices for foreign imports of shooting kit (i.e. most of what we buy) but that's because of such things as US Federal export licences, trans-Atlantic shipping costs, import duty, importers' profit margins etc; to be told that yes, we are actually paying more than foreign customers for the same items because "they" need to be encouraged (while we don't?) feels like a kick in the teeth, frankly.

TonyH

[alled12]

The great british rip off at work. I hate to say that about a British Firm but in this case its true. Last time I imported a barrel from Pacnor when you could, it was $300 dollars including shipping £203 at the current rate, this was 9 months ago rate was £1: $1.74. By the time I had paid her majesty a cut of £40 its still cheaper than you. £203 would be the price we pay including shipping the base price for a Pacnor Barrel is £175.00, that is there super match chrome molly barrel. The cheapest barrel from Pacnor is $230 (£155.00) I will give you my business but the only way that will happen is if you drop the bias. I can understand a retailer who wants 50 barrels at time getting a discount but this is ridiculous, the Americans dont have one cost for them and one for us.

The equivalent cut rifle barrel would be from bartlien or Kreiger barrels is as follows:

Bartlien (Any Twist Rate, Cut rifle barrel)

Current

.20 cal

S.S. max. 1.250 dia x 29" blank $365.00 (£246.00)

C.M. max. 1.300 dia x 29" blank $365.00 (£246.00)

 

.224 cal thru .338

S.S. max. 1.250 dia x 29" blank $295.00 (£200)

C.M. max. 1.300 dia x 29" blank $285.00 (£192)

Kreiger

between $285 and $385 dependent on dimensions calibre etc (£192 to £260)

Ok Add £30 for p&p per barrel and then £70 for her majesty, it was still cheaper to import any type of rifle barrel from the USA than buy a border. Sorry but until you wake up and stop giving us a swift one while we are bent over my cash goes overseas. Even Lothar Walther dont have two different prices and are cheaper. I will support british industry but stop ripping us off. I agree with Tony slightly lower base price for british customers and you can have my business, that simple.

[NICK]

Alled.

 

Maybe we can just buy the Border export barrels instead, will pay the VAT and collect it on my way past.

 

Nick.

[baldie]

Gents, before you compare american barrels to british ones, regardless of what border are charging....remember to factor in an absolute minimum of $250 for an export license....because you wont legally get one out without it. Infact, if you can find a license for that money ....shout up....most are considerably more.

[TonyH]

Gents, before you compare american barrels to british ones, regardless of what border are charging....remember to factor in an absolute minimum of $250 for an export license....because you wont legally get one out without it. Infact, if you can find a license for that money ....shout up....most are considerably more.

Absolutely right, baldie, though I dare say anyone in the gun trade would be batch ordering to spread the export licence cost across quite a few barrels.

But outside the USA prices are not necessarily excessive either: look on the True-Flite (NZ) site and they list a 28" Premium Target barrel in .224" or 6mm for the equivalent (currently) of £215.... That would be my first port of call, but unfortunately they're not interested in selling to UK individuals: last year they replied to my email, "We have an agent in the UK and do not ship barrels to individuals - please contact Fox Firearms..."

Who do not, of course, sell True-Flites on at anything remotely resembling the NZ price! Yeah, I know, I know, cost of running a 'smithing business etc. I just don't see why the NZ firm won't ship to individuals - as alled12 and many others have found over the years, US barrel makers have been only too happy (until recently) to deal direct with us. Sigh...

TonyH

[baldie]

Tru-flite are doing the decent thing by the guy is who buying a hell of a lot of barrels from them Tony. As the old saying goes, "dont bite the hand that feeds you " etc. Not great for the public if they dont wish to deal with Foxy, but you have to remember that brian may have over 100 barrels in stock at any one time. Thats a lot of money laid out isn,t it ?

 

There is nothing to stop anyone on here doing all the paperwork, spending time on the phone, and sorting out their own permits to buy barrels from any of the states manufacturers however. I,ve found though, that people suddenly lose interest when they realise what a pain in the family jewels, import/export paperwork is. I,d personally rather stick pins in my eyes.

[TonyH]

Tru-flite are doing the decent thing by the guy is who buying a hell of a lot of barrels from them Tony. As the old saying goes, "dont bite the hand that feeds you " etc. Not great for the public if they dont wish to deal with Foxy, but you have to remember that brian may have over 100 barrels in stock at any one time. Thats a lot of money laid out isn,t it ?...

That's certainly a consideration, Baldie, but are they doing the decent thing by UK customers for their barrels? I don't think anyone could point to all those personal imports of US barrels over the years, and argue convincingly that they significantly damaged the business of UK gunsmiths dealing in the same product... In any case, deliberately channeling an item through just one UK distributor smacks of restraint of trade, or something - the sort of thing the EU commission loves but which unarguably militates against the interests of individual consumers. Not everybody might want to buy a True-Flite from Foxy - they might prefer to get one individually and DIY or have it done by the bloke down the road. Especially in these Internet times, people are accustomed to shopping around more than ever, and these antiquated trading practices just add to the hassle of excessive government restrictions/penal taxes on firearms related goods. You suggested correctly to that poster who was making stocks that the gun trade might beat a path to his door: I reckon if a native barrel maker was able to mass produce a quality product at a modest price and minimise distribution costs - no frills, limited options, mail order by Internet, payPal payment, etc - he'd clean up among the significant number of keen UK riflemen who'd love a custom barrel - if they could afford one and had some sort of choice...

regards, TonyH

[baldie]

Selling directly to the customer removes the small margin the gunsmith makes on a blank Tony. Some gunsmiths wont fit a customer supplied blank. Some add a premium, which is basically their lost profit, and some [ like myself] will not guarantee the finished barrel,s accuracy, because i didn,t supply the barrel, or take the profit. The customer cannot have it all ways round, people have to make a living on the job.

The gun trade, its suppliers, and gunsmiths are still very old fashioned, and fiercely protective of one another.Its a trade that generally has low profit margins, where people still do it, because they love the job...the financial recompense certainly isn,t worth it for the hours we work, but the job satisfaction certainly is.

I personally dont think the gun trade will ever reach the dizzy heights of internet sales on a large scale. I know our shop has many times toyed with the idea of a webshop, and then realised it would be a complete waste of time, for a couple of reasons.

1. Most of the stuff we sell is restricted by the firearms acts, so no mail order.

2. All of the stuff we sell is specialist stuff, and needs instruction/help with/ phone discussion at the very least.

 

I shudder to think how many barrels a manufacturer would get back, because the customer has ordered the wrong twist, either intentionally, or not. Profiles etc, not being " quite what i wanted "

 

It can be a difficult buisness at times.

 

Regarding tru-flite, i would wager Brian orders more barrels a month, than the whole of the UK buying singly would order in a year. You have to remember that forums such as this, and others have very serious riflemen as members, who have the wherewithall and drive to order a blank from abroad. If they made up 2% of the barrel buying trade in the UK i would be surprised.

Even just a custom barrelled remmy is a very special [ and unobtainable] item to the vast majority of UK shooters, hence why remmy,s tikka,s and howa,s sell by the bucketfull in comparison. Half the owners cant afford, or dont wish to rebarrel, the other half simply cant be bothered with the hassle. Somewhere in there are the tiny minority of nutters like us.

Its always nice to get the customer in whose been saving up to have a custom barrel put on his old remmy, etc. Usually he,s had it years, and actually shot it out. One of our local clubs is full of old men, and i,ve rebarrelled most of their guns. They all want a long barrelled .308 so they can compete in FTR. They dont have anything fancy, and no extra,s because most of the old lads cant afford it. They always get looked after financially, and i find it especially humbling to work for men like that.

I know full well that most of them wont get the full use out of those barrels.

But it still makes my day.

 

I,m babbling again....bed time methinks.

[onehole]

Well I am sure Lee is reading these posts so "Lee" take note:My riflesmith "Dasherman" has on order with yourselves a 12 twist HV 308 cut tube which should be with him at the end of a 6/8 week period.Just as long as it is then I dont mind paying a bit of a premium to get my rifle finished.Thank you and regards Onehole.

[alled12]

tony I was having the very same discussion with Vermincinerator on the phone last night. Imagine if you will a company decides much as Bartlien did in the USA, to establish a cnc barrel making firm in this country. Knocking out barrels at the price we see in the states, with the same any twist and contour mantra. Bye Bye border fox firearms etc. simple as that or they change there attitude and drop there prices to be competitive. True flite not shipping to individuals is a typical position long dropped by the American firms before export restrictions. Because American firms have onething over ours customer service, whether you order 100 or 1 you are treated the same, a valued customer who may walk back through the door at any time and because you gave him a good quality item at the right price he/she comes back. Not all of ours have bad customer service but, you get the choice.

 

It is actually a breach of several international trade laws, along with the whole concept of appointed agents, single source importing. Imagine the out cry if baked beans only came in by one source to the UK, the sh@t would hit the fan very quickly. I had this discussion with one of the reps from either GMK or Edgar brothers admittedly two of the better ones. The position is simple it makes for better customer service as they have outlays etc, what a load of tosh. Customer service is improved by competition a lack of competition is bad on so many levels, it allows price fixing, shabby customer service, lack of choice, items become special order that are the norm in other countries, they make more money as they require less advertising, I could go on.

 

What the US barrel makers did was give us the minority (Dave your right) a choice, pay over inflated UK prices or buy direct. You might suffer from one than doesnt shoot straight but well you made the decision. The problem the smiths have is as Dave says people dont rebarrel very often. Yes Fox firearms may have a 100 barrels on the shelf at anyone time, thats his decision. What would happen if he dropped his prices below the competition, he would sell a lot more barrels, therefore he needs to order more, therefore a reduced price from the supplier, inturn he makes more money as he is getting a lower unit price. Economies of scale, been around for years as a concept, followed by many a succesful company. But, over pricing sorry not on. The internet came about for this sort of thing to happen questioning the difference in price.

 

Tony the other thing that happens with economies of scale is the price reduction puts more people into the financial envelope, the Henry Ford effect, before he came along you could have a car if you could afford it, because they were hand made, very expensive. Mass production reduced costs and all of a sudden everyone can afford it. Companies can usually justify a certian difference in charge by the location of the factory, different production line etc, in Borders case it comes of the same production line, same cost per unit, why the difference you dont lose anything by selling your barrels in the UK at the same price or slightly less in the UK, everythings the same. Are you saying you lose money on the barrels you ship overseas to encourage exports?

 

Nick thanks for the offer lol, but untill they decide to stop shafting us they will not get a penny of my money. Perhaps it is time for a shooting co-op much like the army and navy did.

[baldie]

No barrel manufacturer will set up in the UK to make barrels. There isn,t the buisness here.

No barrel manufacturer could afford to sell at american prices here either...not with our tax, VAT, and wage bills...it would not be commercially viable. This is why no stock manufacturer can make stocks to rival the yanks on price. They just live cheaper than we do, and thats a fact.

I dont know of any barrel manufacturer that offers quantity discounts Alled...non of the ones we deal with do, and we buy rimfire barrels by the hundreds. Centrefires by the dozen at a time from abroad.

To an outsider, it will look like the gun trade could be bettered by applying all these marketing policies applied to baked beans, sofa,s etc. Not so. The gun trade does not, and has never worked like that. The people who try to operate like that, ie the real big boys, have a reputation for truly shite service, and customers served by muppets who might as well be selling apples and oranges , because they know #### all about guns.The forums are full of complaints about this type of firm, goods sent out not as ordered, which is basically sharp practise. They hope the customer wont send it back. It happened to us last week with a £2400 zeiss. the smaller one was sent out instead, and lo and behold, when we rung, the one we had ordered wasn,t in stock.

Competition doesn,t always improve things for the customer. they rapidly find out that the cut throat merchants, selling out of a garage, usually shaft them on after sales service [ or complete lack of it ]

As an example in our case, we do several things that others who have come along later do....we aren,t the cheapest for anything, but the job is done correctly, and with an after sales second to none. If it breaks, is not up to std, etc, and has been treated reasonably...we replace it, or refund on it, regardless how old the item is. I,ve seen Roger replace goods that were years old, just to keep his reputation, when the guarantee ran out after 12 months.

That guarantee applies to goods we are the sole importer for, or the goods that ever tom, dick and harry is cutting our throats on.

The competition wont do the same.

[onehole]

A big thank you to Lee from "Border" barrels.He has pm,d me with details of exactly when my Smith,s order was received and has confirmed that my barrel is nearing completion and will be sent out very shortly,well within the time frame of their original estimation[6/8weeks] As I said on a previous post its a cut 308 tube in 12 twist HV.I now wish I went to Border in the first place as it would have saved a lot of bother and I would have been shooting this rifle again long before now.I may have paid a premium or will have to in the near future but their barrels are amongst the best going and to have one on your doorstep this quick I dont mind my pocket having to deepen a tad more.

The "Bartlein" will remain on order though for another day or project and it will be interesting to see what the final cost of that one is when it finally turns up!!!

Thanks again Lee.Onehole.

[Ronin]

Well, in some ways the change in export regs has been a relief. No longer can one say to someone who wants a barrel - what do you want, you could have x,y or z

 

Because unless its in the UK and I can find the particular profile the wait will be a long and hard one.

 

Alot of the ju ju, surrounding particualr manufacturers is built of what we see on web forums - this included - we see a particular make of barrel that shoots well and say to ourselves - I want one of them, so yo get your smith to get one.

 

The knock on effect is longer lead times as tha manufacturer struggles to cope with the increase in orders. I have been guilty in the past of this and still am to a degree - I like a particular maker for target barrels, so I get them.

 

Now ive fitted quite a few barrels over the past three years - I would like to think I have some experience of machining and working to very tight tolerances - so I think I know a good barrel when I machine one or check one in the borescope before it gets on my lathe.

 

Since the change in export regs I have used pretty much soley Border barrels, unless specifically asked for something else (ive mentioned previously the last Bartlein took 12 months from order to delivery - it cost the same as the equivalent Border cut once taxes, shipping, export fee had been paid.

 

Of the Borders ive used - and I include the ones other people supplied to me to fit to their rifles, I can honestly say I havent had any problems with them at all.

 

They all shot very well (Archer and Border cut) and there was nothing worng with internal or external finishing.

 

The team at Border turn out a good product, within the estimated lead time without issue.

 

Comparatively they are no more or less expensive that other barrels - yes it would be lovely to have a CNC machine turning out barrels, but I shudder to think what the cost would be of such a thing - and you would need two or three machines to suit various calibres and a profiling lathe too.

 

Dont think the investment would be recovered quickly at all.

 

 

 

Now what would be nice is if someone were to start producing bullets over here, jacketed target, solids (for the impending lead ban... ) and CNC solids for ELR

 

 

Another big investment me thinks.....

[alled12]

Ronin

I think we used to have one in Abingdon Oxfordshire, Howitzer products I believe made bullets and cases. They finished when the pistol ban came in. I never said border werent good barrels, on the contrary they make very good barrels from the reports I have read, just a pricing issue, resolve that and I will seriously examine buying one. Dave you can never say never, Spain now have Bergara barrels, international markets and all that. Last Pacnor I order took 12 weeks, very acceptable and nice people to deal with. Dave I do see your point, about competition but I can back my arguement with plenty of studies etc from other industries that show competition is a good thing. I would never tar every person in the guntrade with the same brush, there are unfortunately enough out there who are bad, I have dealt with a few. The problem is a volume industry in this country very low. If your in the USA its very different high volume, customer services has to be good. I have dealt with SOuth Yorks a few times and have to say it has always been a pleasure, service is excellent and I will use them again. You get under cut on price well thats an open market. It does have its upsides and downsides I am afraid, but you wouldnt want only one kind of Baked Beans now would you.The prices for Rifle basix triggers are spot on when you compare them to the prices on the US website, thats how it should be. I guess one of the main issues for volume is comparing it to the USA, you guy orders several hundred barrels at one time, some one over there orders several 1000. I remember reading some where about the 5mm magnum rimfire being reintroduced, their was a manufacturer who was examining making it, a buyer from one of the major retialers walked over and said will have the first 2 million rounds now if you've got them. We cant match that in this country. Just the difference between here and across the pond. At present we have to accept it, relaxation of the export of barrels will occurr it always does and we get competition bacl again. The dollar decreases in value against pound and get lower prices supposedly. We shall have to wait and see what happens over the next few years wont we.

[Ronin]

Allied

 

 

my post was a general response, not directed at anyone in particular

[Chris-NZ]

... True-Flite (NZ) site and they list a 28" Premium Target barrel in .224" or 6mm for the equivalent (currently) of £215.... That would be my first port of call, but unfortunately they're not interested in selling to UK individuals: ..

TonyH

 

 

There's something you guys are obviously unaware of- TrueFlite is a microscopic business with two manufacturing owners and possibly two other admin staff max. Ignoring any conditions with the UK agent, I very much doubt they have the admin capacity for indiv sales. They still manage a very high quality product.

 

Chris-NZ

[TonyH]

There's something you guys are obviously unaware of- TrueFlite is a microscopic business with two manufacturing owners and possibly two other admin staff max. Ignoring any conditions with the UK agent, I very much doubt they have the admin capacity for indiv sales. They still manage a very high quality product.

 

Chris-NZ

Thanks for this info, Chris. It explains a lot - but it's also very interesting: a "microscopic business" can turn out quality custom barrels at a price that beats the best UK prices and is directly comparable with US barrel prices...

TonyH

[ChrisF]

TonyH ,

 

You are also un aware what wages the average Kiwi gets , you may think that they are almost on a equal footing to Brits, USA or Canada or Aussie , and you would be very wrong .

 

Thats actually the single biggest mistake , although most who donot live in NZ , will think this way , it not even close to being real , its just a fairy tale that keeps being repeated by people outside NZ , and also by Very wishful thinking Kiwis .

 

Kiwis are some of the poorest paid workers in the Western world , opps I have got to stop saying the truth .

 

If I remember correctly , NZ ranks only a couple of places above Rhodesia/Zimbabwe in OCED stats , we used to be in the top 4 in the 1950s , now closer to 50 , Opps

 

 

Later Chris

[Chris-NZ]

You speak as though it's a problem for the buyers Chris

 

Like all countries, sectors of NZ society are doing well. Dairy farmers for example. I guess you don't wanna be in the "wrong" sector.

 

Chris-NZ

[1967spud]

does that mean your getting paid to much Lee

[Bambi-basher]

You are also un aware what wages the average Kiwi gets , you may think that they are almost on a equal footing to Brits, USA or Canada or Aussie , and you would be very wrong .

 

Kiwis are some of the poorest paid workers in the Western world , opps I have got to stop saying the truth .

 

Later Chris

 

Hi Chris

 

I visited NZ in 2003 with a view that I might like to emigrate there, my Uncle who moved there in the 70s was keen for me to move , but when I looked at my wage in the UK and what it allowed me to do, and what I would realistically earn when I first got to NZ it would have been a massive drop in salary even allowing for the lower cost of living.

 

Still it is a nice place to live in.

 

ATB

 

B-b

[ChrisF]

Yeap ,

 

RE certain sector's like Dairying doing well ,

 

We will just forget about the actual facts , like the fact the NZ dairy Workers , who where given no raise other than the stripped down inflation adjustment last yr , and locked in for even less in this yr , this given the record profits made my the company ( this was on the back of recission fears ( workers ) but the company knew the real truth as they hold the accounting books ), .

 

We will also selectively forget about a group of about 22 large farms in a single company , valued at around 200 mil , being liquidated by the banks holding mortages on it ( and they are looking at selling to the Chinese ) .

 

Opps , that given a new record projected payout for milk solids of between 8-9 dollars , this yr .

 

 

Later Chris

[DJM]

Just a quick update,

 

Latest Barrel just arrived from the US without any issues or export license

[Vermincinerator]

Just a quick update,

 

Latest Barrel just arrived from the US without any issues or export license

 

Who from and which manufacturer DJM?

 

Ian.