Long range optics

[Ralpharama]

I’ve just lost the plot and thrown caution to the wind and decided to trade my Barrett 98b in for an AI AXMC with the initial barrel chambered in .338LapMag as with the Barrett. The main reason was that I have a friend with a 98B with a deep throat which needs rectifying, but unlike many rifles, it is a sphincter clenchingly expensive business and may require his gun to be sent across the Atlantic to the colonials😳. Whilst no barrels come free with a gallon of petrol, most can be exchanged for a three figure investment, not so the Yankee sniper rifle. 

So having bitten down on a leather strap and agreed to buy the Brit equivalent, I now realise that I could have a number of different calibres in one and therefore just invest in one super duper scope for all as it were. But here’s the rub ….. which scope to buy?

Currently my best scope by a country mile is my PMII 12-50 x 56.  Now more than one long range shooter tells me that big magnification is not desirable. I genuinely don’t get it. I have turned it down to 25x which is supposed to be the perfect mag, but it always ends creeping up so I can see better. I tend to find on a not massively sunny day that the very high end can lose a bit of crispness, but is perfect at say 40x, which seems eminently better than 25x.

I have one second focal plane scope and definitely prefer first focal plane.

As I have mentioned on here in the past I want to shoot the mile. What scope would you guys buy if you were starting from scratch?

[OSOK]

Your going to need between 70 - 75 moa using a 300g bullet to shoot a mile ... around 25x is a good mag to use because it will give you FOV for impacts where 40x is going to be tricky with recoil to spot . I would keep your dialing just to the turret as opposed to turret and holdover . There are a few scopes that have very good elevation in them .... Ziess S3 4-25x50mm  , Tract 4-25x50mm both have 160 moa ... Both would get you out to 2,500 yards without using holdover .

Both of the above are going to need approx 80 - 90 moa of rail / scope mount to get the 160 moa of travel which means a custom or adjustable rail of sorts . You could use a Nightforce prism to add another 50 moa or 100 moa by just putting it in front of any optic . I have one of these and they work well . All this depends upon how far you want to go ...

OSOK

[Brushy]

It is helps, I’m using 300 SMKs out of my AXMC - which has a 30MOA rail - with a S&B 3-27 High Power and had to hold in the ret for a 1900m target. My solution is around 33mils. I think a prism device is probably prudent (or a ‘flatter’ cartridge) because a maxed out erector makes a poor image when holding in the lower reticle quadrant. 
 

[Ralpharama]

54 minutes ago, OSOK said:

Your going to need between 70 - 75 moa using a 300g bullet to shoot a mile ... around 25x is a good mag to use because it will give you FOV for impacts where 40x is going to be tricky with recoil to spot . I would keep your dialing just to the turret as opposed to turret and holdover . There are a few scopes that have very good elevation in them .... Ziess S3 4-25x50mm  , Tract 4-25x50mm both have 160 moa ... Both would get you out to 2,500 yards without using holdover .

Both of the above are going to need approx 80 - 90 moa of rail / scope mount to get the 160 moa of travel which means a custom or adjustable rail of sorts . You could use a Nightforce prism to add another 50 moa or 100 moa by just putting it in front of any optic . I have one of these and they work well . All this depends upon how far you want to go ...

OSOK

I don't currently shoot anywhere that I can get out further than a mile. The rifle currently has 30MOA rail. I do have a 45MOA mount on the Barrett, though I did think that was a tad excessive given I also want to come back to 1000yards

?

[OSOK]

51 minutes ago, Ralpharama said:

I don't currently shoot anywhere that I can get out further than a mile. The rifle currently has 30MOA rail. I do have a 45MOA mount on the Barrett, though I did think that was a tad excessive given I also want to come back to 1000yards

?

It depends upon how many MOA you have in the scope .... 30 moa rail plus 40 moa mount would be perfect on the S3 or the Tract as it would zero at 100 yards and get out to 2,500 yards ish ... If you went for a 100 moa scope then the 30 moa rail and a 20 moa mount would be better . Work on the fact that your going to use up approx half of the scopes elevation by getting a 100 yards zero so you need to put that back with the rail and mount

OSOK

[Popsbengo]

I use a S&B PM2 at 25x for one mile.  As OSOK says, good to have plenty of visibility and to get back onto the target for spotting.   Mine is FFP in mils.  One mile is 18.2 mils for 300gr Lapua Scenar.  I have about 30moa rail (mix of moa rail and mil mount) and that's got enough elevation to dial 2000yds.  I do have to zero at 200yds though.

[Triffid]

If it helps in any way, I did this comparison spreadsheet a couple of years ago when I was looking for a similar scope. Focus is on MoA rather than Mil scopes and there have been a few new additions since. 

Glass.xlsx

[Ralpharama]

28 minutes ago, Triffid said:

If it helps in any way, I did this comparison spreadsheet a couple of years ago when I was looking for a similar scope. Focus is on MoA rather than Mil scopes and there have been a few new additions since. 

Glass.xlsx 23.76 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks a lot for that

[ds1]

I have a S&B 5-45x56 PM2 on my AXMC 338. It does for the distances I shoot mainly 1km. If I needed more elevation I would look at an Ivey adjustable mount or other options. I don’t need the elevation though. 
 

I have a 7-35 NF ATACR on another rifle which has more elevation but I prefer the S&B on the AI just for the aesthetic. If I was doing it again I would also look at a ZCO 8-40x56. I arranged a couple of ZCO optics for some English friends. They seem very happy with them preferring them to their S&B PM2 scopes. 

[OSOK]

14 hours ago, ds1 said:

I have a S&B 5-45x56 PM2 on my AXMC 338. It does for the distances I shoot mainly 1km. If I needed more elevation I would look at an Ivey adjustable mount or other options. I don’t need the elevation though. 
 

I have a 7-35 NF ATACR on another rifle which has more elevation but I prefer the S&B on the AI just for the aesthetic. If I was doing it again I would also look at a ZCO 8-40x56. I arranged a couple of ZCO optics for some English friends. They seem very happy with them preferring them to their S&B PM2 scopes. 

another question would be .... What's your budget 1k to 2k or 3k to 4k

[Ralpharama]

16 minutes ago, OSOK said:

another question would be .... What's your budget 1k to 2k or 3k to 4k

Ahh now there's the rub. I'm not going to get anything any good south of £2K, it's just how far north I can go. 🤣 The ZCO looks awesome but that probably is is slightly too far. I do like the option of high magnification and have never used anything much under 20x.

After being told that 25x is plenty I have tried using my scope at 25x, but always end up cranking on more.

[Popsbengo]

25 minutes ago, Ralpharama said:

After being told that 25x is plenty I have tried using my scope at 25x, but always end up cranking on more.

when you shoot, using your higher magnification, can you get back on target before your shot lands ?  If you can that's good to go.   There's around three seconds to a hit at the mile.  Having a mate as spotter is also good!

It's useful to see and measure misses (hence FFP) as there's next to no wind reading options on ELR ranges so the preceding shots are the best info on wind down range.

I'm not convinced there's much to be gained spending +£3k.  My S&B tracks perfectly (essential for ELR), is more than bright enough and has rock solid parallax adjustment.  It's sufficiently rugged to resist knocks and heavy recoil.  Not sure what's to be gained in the giddy heights of scopes at +£3k ?

[OSOK]

That's not true ... Plenty of scopes for under or around the 2k will do the job you require ... The S3 , Tract , Recon , NXS , NX8  etc ...... You crank the power upto 40x on anything and you won't see strike with a 338 ... You'll need a spotter every shot . If you love your S&B so much then by an Ivey mount and use that ..... I have an Ivey and they work well too and are more versatile than the Nightforce Prism but at just under a kilo their heavy ..

I bought the 40mm Ivey for my IOR but i had ring reducers made so i can use either a 34mm or 30mm scopes .... If you buy the smaller option then you can't go bigger if you change scopes !

[Popsbengo]

4 minutes ago, OSOK said:

That's not true ... Plenty of scopes for under or around the 2k will do the job you require ... The S3 , Tract , Recon , NXS , NX8  etc ...... You crank the power upto 40x on anything and you won't see strike with a 338 ... You'll need a spotter every shot . If you love your S&B so much then by an Ivey mount and use that ..... I have an Ivey and they work well too and are more versatile than the Nightforce Prism but at just under a kilo their heavy ..

I bought the 40mm Ivey for my IOR but i had ring reducers made so i can use either a 34mm or 30mm scopes .... If you buy the smaller option then you can't go bigger if you change scopes !

There's something to be said in favour of an Ivey mount or similar to avoid having to use the reticule for elevation hold over.  Keeping the scope's optical axis close to centre is optimum for elimination of lens distortion.

I may treat myself ...

[jcampbellsmith]

I have recently got one of these - https://www.clunycountrystore.co.uk/products/zeiss-lrp-s3-425-50-scope?pr_prod_strat=e5_desc&pr_rec_id=2b0581345&pr_rec_pid=7994146521301&pr_ref_pid=7994140229845&pr_seq=uniform

"The finest option for medium- to extremely long-range shooting is the ZEISS LRP S3 425-50 scope. More accurate shot placement is made possible by the combination 160 MOA or 46.5 MILs elevation turret and 4x-25x magnification."

Regards

JCS

[Popsbengo]

3 hours ago, jcampbellsmith said:

I have recently got one of these - https://www.clunycountrystore.co.uk/products/zeiss-lrp-s3-425-50-scope?pr_prod_strat=e5_desc&pr_rec_id=2b0581345&pr_rec_pid=7994146521301&pr_ref_pid=7994140229845&pr_seq=uniform

"The finest option for medium- to extremely long-range shooting is the ZEISS LRP S3 425-50 scope. More accurate shot placement is made possible by the combination 160 MOA or 46.5 MILs elevation turret and 4x-25x magnification."

Regards

JCS

that's pretty impressive elevation in a 34mm tube

[jcampbellsmith]

1 hour ago, Popsbengo said:

that's pretty impressive elevation in a 34mm tube

Yes, it should get me out to 500m using the turret only. I may need to go down the reticle to get to 600 yds.

Regards

JCS

[Popsbengo]

31 minutes ago, jcampbellsmith said:

Yes, it should get me out to 500m using the turret only. I may need to go down the reticle to get to 600 yds.

Regards

JCS

I had to think for a minute !   That'll be .22LR !  

[jcampbellsmith]

4 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

I had to think for a minute !   That'll be .22LR !  

It is indeed. 

Best regards 

JCS

[levelplaying]

OSOK, Where did you get your ring reducers from?

[OSOK]

2 hours ago, levelplaying said:

OSOK, Where did you get your ring reducers from?

You need a mate with a lathe and order some delrin from eBay .... Nothing out there to buy off the shelf but easy enough to make

[mactavish]

On 1/31/2024 at 4:39 PM, jcampbellsmith said:

It is indeed. 

Best regards 

JCS

 

Nice .22eLR...

 

I have one of its brothers from various other mothers. 49.1Mil dialable in the Toric topped system (655m with Eley Match) & with a further 48Mil marked holdover on the reticle to theoretically take an Eley Match out to 970m. So far I've had it hitting a 300mm plate almost every shot at 720m in good conditions. Not bad for a wee .22...

 

On the OP's original point, with most long range shooting, magnification is 'mostly' your friend & if you've got it, flaunt it. I mostly like & use lots of mag too (rarely off x40 on my March FX shooting Long Range modes). I also try never to compromise available mag to fix bad positional or poor shooting form & follow through (unless push really comes to shove in timed competition).

 

Cheers.

[Popsbengo]

7 hours ago, mactavish said:

On the OP's original point, with most long range shooting, magnification is 'mostly' your friend & if you've got it, flaunt it. I mostly like & use lots of mag too (rarely off x40 on my March FX shooting Long Range modes). I also try never to compromise available mag to fix bad positional or poor shooting form & follow through (unless push really comes to shove in timed competition).

Cheers.

Compromise available mag... bad positional or poor shooting form ? you're talking .22 rimfire !   Holding an aiming mark at 1 mile with a .338LM is a bit different I think you must agree and also more appropriate to the previous comments to Ralph's original post.

[mactavish]

5 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

Compromise available mag... bad positional or poor shooting form ? you're talking .22 rimfire !   Holding an aiming mark at 1 mile with a .338LM is a bit different I think you must agree and also more appropriate to the previous comments to Ralph's original post.

No mate, I wasn't in that context. Apologies for confusion. After hitting on that nice wee .22LR initially (& taking the perfect opportunity to show my own wee ELR practice rig) I went on to expand generally on the OP's topic, & concur with his own preferences for using higher mag when & wherever possible. (I shoot ELR mostly with a 28 & a 3028 Nosler & often shoot suppressed. I know all about managing recoil... )

[OSOK]

Hitting a 300mm plate almost every shot at 720m even in good conditions is mighty impressive .... I reckon there could be upto 1100mm of vertical dispersion at that distance with Eley match .... Impressed  !

OSOK

ps... Sorry to the OP for going off track