Avian Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 31 minutes ago, AJW7088 said: Yes, if your FAC condition wording did not/does not include the element that says “and only whilst a member of *club1” then the HO and police would not need to be notified of the range use (as your wording does not restrict you to target shooting as a member of a HO Approved Club only). However, and this is where I think I may have been at cross purposes, the OP had not said exactly what their FAC condition says and yours appears to be different from the standard one. My points about the club notifying the use of ranges only applies to an FAC holder who has the condition wording that includes the “only whilst a member of *club1” element. Adrian Target only shooting is always restricted to being a member of a HO approved club, that is what the act states, you have to be a member of a club. They are not however restricted to only the ranges for that club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJW7088 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 35 minutes ago, Popsbengo said: Adrian, do you have professional knowledge of this matter - ie are you a legal or police professional ? It would help to understand where you're coming from. If it helps then yes, my background is police firearms licensing. I previously chaired the national policy level group for firearms & explosives licensing, although I retired in 2013. I now work for the UN and OSCE in small arms controls, mostly focussed abroad though. I also RO at The Tunnel as I am a keen target shooter! I think the element in this discussion that may be at cross purposes is that the use of any suitably safe and adequately insured range by a target shooter is perfectly lawful. The point I am making is that there may be a knock on effect for a Home Office Approved Club though. Since this arises in connection with the conditions of the club’s approval, it is not something that is controlled by the law, in the way that FAC conditions are controlled and can be enforced by prosecution for example. So, it is perfectly lawful for a target shooting certificate holder to target shoot on any range safely constructed and adequately insured for the purpose, whether or not a club to which the holder belongs has notified the HO/police of the use of the range. The standard FAC target shooting condition includes that the holder only ever target shoots as a club member. This does not affect where the holder can shoot (so long as it is a range safely constructed etc.). It just means that when they do shoot they are doing so as a club member. The aspect I am referring to is simply that there may be a residual issue for the club regarding compliance with approval conditions (which is not an offence) if the use of the range is not notified. Since it is not an offence for the club not to notify, no one is committing any offence when a target shooting certificate holder heads off and uses a private range and the club doesn’t notify. The police have their s15(7) powers as soon as a club occupies or uses premises (which includes ranges in the open air) but the issue for them is whether they know the ranges are being used by a HO Approved Club and therefore they have those powers there. The backstop to ensure this is supposed to be the requirement that clubs have to notify the HO and police of the ranges they occupy (as their own) or use. As I expect is clear, the likelihood of an issue in regard to this arising is slim (I am aware only of one), but it could be an issue, especially if the land owner doesn’t want the police to have such powers on the private property. So, none of the examples of common practice by target shooters given in this thread contain anything unlawful, a club not notifying range use is not unlawful, it is just that there is the potential for the club to have a HO Approval related concern raised, which I believe is often overlooked (and probably for good reason!). I expect you may reasonably decide that my suggestion of a potential problem is either non existent or is too remote to ever actually be an issue, in which case I apologise for taking up time and space raising it. But if it were ever to arise, at least this thread might help as a starter when considering it further. Thanks, Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Adrian very fulsome explanation thanks. I defer to your detailed knowledge however I feel there was crossed purposes and we were in fact generally agreeing that target shooting club members are free to shoot at any properly operated range without the need for their club to notify the authorities and add those ranges to the club's profile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avian Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Hi Adrian, Your comments above are very interesting, but I cannot see how you come to that conclusion. "The firearm(s) and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of*club1, and only on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequatefinancial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim." It says only whilst a member, i.e. you have to be a member of s club, which is what the legislation states. So if you membership lapses you cannot longer meet that condition. If it stated as a member of a club then perhaps your conclusion might be correct. If the condition was indeed at ranges of the club, or notified by them, then surly it would clearly state that. The fact that is says: "and only on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequatefinancial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim." makes it IMHO clear that there is no expectancy of it being on club ranges or ones notified by them since they would all have insurance in place and be safe since that is a condition of the registration of a club under the act I believe. So if what you say os correct how can target shooters turn up and shoot at the tunnel without breaking a condition of their FAC if their club knows nothing about that range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJW7088 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Hello Popsbengo, Yes, my apologies for the somewhat crossed purposes, but we are certainly in agreement that the common practices are perfectly lawful, even if a complication may exist in the background. Take care, Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJW7088 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Hello Avian, I follow your point about the potential difference between “whilst” and “as” but I think the reason that the FAC condition wording does not include anything about the ranges being the club’s own ranges or other ranges notified by them is because if it did then it would be elevating the conditions of club approval to that of legal requirement (which they are not). What we are agreed on though is that club members can perfectly lawfully shoot on any ranges so long as they are suitably constructed and insured. Even if there is a residual issue for a club it is not an issue in law. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avian Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 HI Adrain, I understand the logic of what you are saying about the residual issue for the club, but one would not be shooting as a member of the club, i.e. not representing them in any way, so they have no control, knowledge of what is being done and have no responsibility of it at all. I believe that the whilst a member of club XYZ is to comply with the act in that one has to be a member of a club, once that lapses you are breaching the condition of the FAC I don't see it has anything at all to do with the range itself or any connection between the range being used and the club one is a member of. If it did they surly the wording would be far more specific in that area. It would say "on club ranges or ranges they have notified" David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJW7088 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Hello David, Hopefully yours would be the interpretation the HO would adopt in the light of any concerns being raised through the police. I do accept that the likelihood of any of this is very low indeed though. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avian Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Hi Adrian, If it was that the club had notify the HO or police of any ranges it's member used then surly that would be stated in the club rules and that one could only use ranges that they had notified and not doing so would nullify your membership. Otherwise their insurers would never insure them as they would be breaking the law in not notifying anywhere their member target shot. Low or not if one breaks the law one is likely to loose one's FAC. Where would be the best place to get this clarified, the local FEO or higher up? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJW7088 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Hello David, Club rules are a matter for the club rather than the HO or the police. I appreciate that the HO require the club constitution and rules to be uploaded now as part of a new application for Approval, and previously the police would have collected them on behalf of the HO (as part of the Approval criteria), but this does not mean the HO or police are confirming the constitution and rules are complete in every respect. Also, a failure to notify the HO and police of the use of a range by the club is not an offence, and may not be part of the insurance cover conditions for the club’s insurance. In fact I think that in practice the insurance cover referred to in respect of a range (in relation to the FAC condition) is different from the insurance cover a club may take out, especially if the club does not have a range of its own but only hires range time from a range operator(s). Clarification as to the residual risk discussed above would need to come from the HO, as the risk relates to their view about whether a club has complied with the conditions of HO Approval, if the use of a range by club members had not been notified to the HO and police, even if the argument is that the members were not shooting “as” members of the club, but were shooting “whilst” members in order to comply with their FAC condition. I hope that helps, Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avian Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Thank you for the explanation of that. I still do not feel your argument is correct, but it's been an interesting discussion David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJW7088 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Thank you too. Hopefully it will all remain rather an academic point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 21 hours ago, One on top of two said: Thank you 👍 I just couldn’t be assed anymore but for the record I am game keeper , in fact I have been the keeper on the estate for 12 years now , and paid by the estate. I run it all and have a considerable financial interest in it too . I’m also paid by two other estates for all the crop protection , I supply all the bird scarers / Gas guns and bangers and cover the maintenance too . Also moving them to the vulnerable areas as and when needed , 7 days a week . and if that does not work I will shoot the fields as per current DEFRA general license conditions. during lambing season I will also be doing predator control . which those that do it or have done it will know is a full on job and with NO room for mistakes or idiots . at drilling times I jump on the machines and help drill , ( which is what I’m busy doing tomorrow ) harvest time Upto game season I’m Nearly full time With everything going on . I also own my own land , I have stables and horses . I should be covered 👍 I belive the above qualifies me as one of the so-called key workers .... your welcome 👍 Well that’s half of my income haha 😂 as for the other half , Im a partner in small building firm with few great lads doing what we have done for the past 30 yrs and thats farm maintenance also one off houses , and extensions ect ect , However being a partner affords me the luxury of just helping out as and when which in turn allows me to do what I love the most ... that would be the farm / game keeper / crop protection side of things . Does this only apply to you..? Could or couldn't you take any mates with you too shoot unless they too were employed/paid by the estate which then makes them key workers or not ?? Just curious..!! The replies to the thread further on about shooting with clubs then going to other ranges got a bit conflicting. I am a member of 2 clubs.. One is HO approved and the other isn't or wasn't, not sure if they have been approved yet.. Individuals who are NRA members can hire a lane and shoot.. They maybe members of non HO approved clubs.. What would the difference be officially..? My FAC has been open for over 20 years and the conditions let me zero on permissions I have the authority from the landowner to do so.. All my rifles are for hunting and target use and it's the target ammo that has the restrictions on I think.. Reading all the replies on this thread on what ranges you can and cant shoot on got confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJW7088 Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 48 minutes ago, No i deer said: Reading all the replies on this thread on what ranges you can and cant shoot on got confusing. Sorry about that! However, to try and assist, subject to the conditions on their FAC the certificate holder can shoot on any range that has been constructed to be safe with the type of firearm they will shoot with there, and subject to there being in place suitable insurance. The point that was probably the confusing one related only to a possible Home Office Club Approval issue, which would not involve the shooter personally directly. Certainly, if it is an issue, then neither the shooter concerned nor their club commits any offence. From what you have said, your certificate allows you to zero on land over which you have permission to shoot (and may not mention ranges at all). If that is the case then you can do that, and the question about clubs is not relevant in your circumstances at all. If your certificate allows you to both zero over land and zero on ranges then the ranges simply have to be safely constructed and there has to be adequate insurance in place, and so long as that is the case you can shoot on any such ranges. The question about clubs is only potentially relevant if your certificate condition for shooting on ranges is subject to you shooting whilst being a member of the club, however the interpretation of “whilst” is the central question over the issue that was being discussed. Whatever the outcome, it doesn’t affect where you can shoot. I am sorry that this is not straightforward and that I may not be making it any clearer! Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 Without looking at my FAC I think the restrictions was too do with only shooting target ammo as long as i was a member of a club.. Those rules are a bit daft as you could always buy target ammo without doing the face to face thing and you could only buy expanding stuff like that until recently.. There are some strange rules that make no sense to most of us the way the terminology explains things.. wording that only law solicitors could decipher.. Thanks for your contribution to trying answer these questions 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted April 14, 2020 Report Share Posted April 14, 2020 13 hours ago, Avian said: HI Adrain, I understand the logic of what you are saying about the residual issue for the club, but one would not be shooting as a member of the club, i.e. not representing them in any way, so they have no control, knowledge of what is being done and have no responsibility of it at all. I believe that the whilst a member of club XYZ is to comply with the act in that one has to be a member of a club, once that lapses you are breaching the condition of the FAC I don't see it has anything at all to do with the range itself or any connection between the range being used and the club one is a member of. If it did they surly the wording would be far more specific in that area. It would say "on club ranges or ranges they have notified" David If your are just a target shooter then you have to be a member of a club to get an FAC which is the main thing and hopefully your taught the basic safety rules gun handling before you go to other ranges too shoot. Your comments in the last paragraph would make things even more complicated for target shooters.. Let's not 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avian Posted April 14, 2020 Report Share Posted April 14, 2020 Yes that is my point, I do not believe it is or ever was the intention of the wording to restrict one to used clubs ranges or ranges notified by them. I believe the wording "Whilst a member of club XYZ" is simply to reenforce the fact that one has to be a member of a club to have a firearm for solely target shooting, as is required by the act, so that if ones membership lapsed one would be breaching the condition of the FAC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avian Posted April 14, 2020 Report Share Posted April 14, 2020 20 hours ago, AJW7088 said: Thank you too. Hopefully it will all remain rather an academic point. HIAdrian, My current FAC states: "The .338 barrel, sound moderator and ammunition shall be used ONLY for target shooting at Brookshill Shooting Club and on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim." Its a barrel as it's off my AXMC rifle and that was purchased after the rifle was bought in .308. It is clear from this that there is no intention by the firearms department to restrict use to only my club and ranges notified by it. Regards David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJW7088 Posted April 14, 2020 Report Share Posted April 14, 2020 Hello David, Yes that’s very clear with that wording, as you say. The wording of the condition on my FAC is a little different, which is what could lead to a different interpretation about whether a club should notify the ranges its members use. What is quite clear, again as you pointed out, is that even that interpretation would not actually restrict the use of any range that was safely constructed and adequately insured, it was about whether or not it’s use had to be notified. Anyway, thanks for the detail of the condition wording that you have. Take care, Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted April 14, 2020 Report Share Posted April 14, 2020 well that was a fulsome and detailed exchange of views! Not sure we actually achieved anything from it though 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJW7088 Posted April 14, 2020 Report Share Posted April 14, 2020 Good point, well made! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted April 14, 2020 Report Share Posted April 14, 2020 Reading the different interpretations and having a expert in firearms admin must of thrown some light on the subject for many.. I learnt lots of things 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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