Lands

[munkjack]

Hi can any body tell me the most accurate way to work out seating depth for my 22.250 I bought an RCBS kit secondhand the instructions are rubbish and I'm getting in muddle with it!!

I'm tempted to sell it on for something that is more consistent and more user friendly as this is what is stopping from rolling my Owen at the moment!!

Cheers.

[Mark Jones]

Buy a Hornaday OAL guage and adapted case. you will then have a reference point to set your COAL from.

[Andrew]

First reflect on why you want to find the lands. If you seat to recommended OAL as a starting point I can almost guarantee you won't stray far from that mark -provided your ammunition was assembled well. It will feed through your magazine and cause you no grief. JMHO.~Andrew

[That bald headed Geordie]

If you want to find the lands and where your bullet just touches I find that by removing the firing pin/spring from your bolt, seat a bullet long in a sized case and insert into the chamber and you can feel resistance on bolt closure that means you are well into the lands. If you leave your firing pin/spring assembly in you are pushing against the spring and cannot feel the bullet hitting the lands.

Seat the bullet a little more into the case neck by say 10 thou each time until the bolt hand closes without any resistance. Lift the bolt and you should feel virtually no resistance as well. If you give your bullet a rub with very fine wirewool each time you should see the lands marking the bullet. Look for the point where there minimal marks on and that is probably bullet jam/touching cartridge overall length (base to ogive).

I then move it back from that dimensions to give me about 15 thou jump. Do this a couple of times to get a few measurements to give you confidence that you have found your bullet touching figure (not jammed into the rifling).

There is a video on another shooting site (American) that shows the above method and is well worth a look.

[eldon]

Look for the point where there minimal marks on and that is probably bullet jam/touching cartridge overall length (base to ogive).

 

 

This comment is very important!

If you are measuring OVERALL length, base to bullet tip, then you are wasting your time.

[Brillo]

After watching a video about this on YouTube I gave it a go and it was spot-on. I now use it every time I need to get a new measurement. A refinement I added is to rub a bit of engineers blue on the ogive.

[Brillo]

Vince AKA The Gun Pimp has another method, involving using a cleaning rod if you're not happy with removing the firing pin.

Best he explains it.

[VarmLR]

Another way is to adapt a fired and de-primed case by cutting a fine slot in the neck, and squeezing the neck in just enough that it grips a bullet reasonably firmly when a bullet is seated in. Simply insert the case and bullet into the chamber with the bullet seated long and close the bolt gently. No need to remove firing pin. Carefully open bolt and slowly eject round by hand. Mark the bullet where it meets the neck with a felt tip in case it moves, and measure to ogive. Repeat at least half a dozen times or so and take an average of the readings which ought to be within a few thou' anyway. I've been using this method for a while and it seems fairly reliable. No expensive tools needed.

[The Gun Pimp]

Vince AKA The Gun Pimp has another method, involving using a cleaning rod if you're not happy with removing the firing pin.

Best he explains it.

Yes - there are various methods. The important thing is not to seek that seemingly ideal - 'just touching' the lands. Better to be safely off the lands or well into.

 

Lately, (with the exception of the 6PPC) I'm finding bullets often prefer to jump 10 -20 thou.

 

The other reason for 'off the lands' - if you shoot in competition and a cease fire is called, you may have to unload and risk 'pulling' the round if you're into the lands. Powder in the action can often mean shoot over. Not good if you're in the first match of a weekend's F Class!

[Mark Jones]

Another way is to adapt a fired and de-primed case by cutting a fine slot in the neck, and squeezing the neck in just enough that it grips a bullet reasonably firmly when a bullet is seated in. Simply insert the case and bullet into the chamber with the bullet seated long and close the bolt gently. No need to remove firing pin. Carefully open bolt and slowly eject round by hand. Mark the bullet where it meets the neck with a felt tip in case it moves, and measure to ogive. Repeat at least half a dozen times or so and take an average of the readings which ought to be within a few thou' anyway. I've been using this method for a while and it seems fairly reliable. No expensive tools needed.

Just brought a Hornaday OAL gauge having previously done this method. Don't really consider it was expensive but when I used it I did 6 readings, all but one were the same and the other was 1 thou more. Fantastic accuracy, and really easy to use. If you want to change caliber it's about £6 for a modified case, really couldn't reccomend it highly enough

[Elwood]

Just brought a Hornaday OAL gauge having previously done this method. Don't really consider it was expensive but when I used it I did 6 readings, all but one were the same and the other was 1 thou more. Fantastic accuracy, and really easy to use. If you want to change caliber it's about £6 for a modified case, really couldn't reccomend it highly enough

Keep that bullet, that's your throat erosion gauge for the rest of the barrels life. A different batch of bullets will more than likely give you a different reading, I've had batches of Berger's differ by 17 thou with base to ogive.

[Mark Jones]

Keep that bullet, that's your throat erosion gauge for the rest of the barrels life. A different batch of bullets will more than likely give you a different reading, I've had batches of Berger's differ by 17 thou with base to ogive.

Agreed!

[Brillo]

Yes - there are various methods. The important thing is not to seek that seemingly ideal - 'just touching' the lands. Better to be safely off the lands or well into.

 

Lately, (with the exception of the 6PPC) I'm finding bullets often prefer to jump 10 -20 thou.

 

The other reason for 'off the lands' - if you shoot in competition and a cease fire is called, you may have to unload and risk 'pulling' the round if you're into the lands. Powder in the action can often mean shoot over. Not good if you're in the first match of a weekend's F Class!

Take heed of Vince's final point. It happened to me on an informal club day. What a pain it was getting that powder out.

[snakeman]

Another way is to adapt a fired and de-primed case by cutting a fine slot in the neck, and squeezing the neck in just enough that it grips a bullet reasonably firmly when a bullet is seated in. Simply insert the case and bullet into the chamber with the bullet seated long and close the bolt gently. No need to remove firing pin. Carefully open bolt and slowly eject round by hand. Mark the bullet where it meets the neck with a felt tip in case it moves, and measure to ogive. Repeat at least half a dozen times or so and take an average of the readings which ought to be within a few thou' anyway. I've been using this method for a while and it seems fairly reliable. No expensive tools needed.

 

+ 1

 

And another slant on this method is to gently use a collet die to size the case-neck until the correct resistance is reached (trial & error testing for bullet fit/resistance)

 

Then chamber and measure x10 and then work out the average. Done it for years, seems to work for me and doesn't cost a bean

 

ATB

[stu47]

And yet another take on the procedures already put forward - I took one of my three times fired cases and after de-priming I cut a slot in the base to allow clearance for the ejector. My rifle is a Tikka M55 and removing the ejector is a real chore! I fitted the .337 bush in my dies giving half a thou tension and sized the case so it only just holds the bullet in place - works a treat. I use the same bullet everytime to measure/ monitor erosion.

[snakeman]

Good to the see peoples' ingenuity on this topic - many ways to skin a cat and not pay for the knife

[munkjack]

Thanks guys this is all great stuff I'm feeling a lot better about loading my Owen now!

[Andrew]

Is seating to the lands a requisite for the person new to reloading? If you are new to reloading, why not stick with the data and OAL advised by the data provider? At least until you get all the basics hammered out?? I have taught many people to reload and discussing the distance to the lands did not come up.~Andrew

[eldon]

Is seating to the lands a requisite for the person new to reloading? If you are new to reloading, why not stick with the data and OAL advised by the data provider? At least until you get all the basics hammered out?? I have taught many people to reload and discussing the distance to the lands did not come up.~Andrew

 

Agreed, walk before you run and all that.

Also bear in mind that you may not be able to mag feed if you go longer!

[Mark Jones]

Agreed, walk before you run and all that.

Also bear in mind that you may not be able to mag feed if you go longer!

Is the whole point of reloading not to make more accurate/ tuned ammunition for your rifle? Surely after finding the node or sweet spot with your powder weight then to further tighten your group size you would try adjusting seating depth? In order to do this safely you really need to know your OAL.

I think the other argument for reloading is it's cheaper but in my experience so far this is not the case, it's real good fun though!

[munkjack]

At the moment I don't have any reloading data for the Heavier bullets that I want to try in my 1in8 twist barrel I would like to start of wright with correct oal and obviously powder type and weight, wich I see has been covered in a previous post I now safty is the most important thing combined with that and some consistent accuracy and me doing my bit I'll be happy.

[eldon]

Yes Mark Jones it is, but the OP comes across as a beginner to reloading so why make things more complicated!

[Mark Jones]

Eldon,

 

Yes Mark Jones it is, but the OP comes across as a beginner to reloading so why make things more complicated!

 

I have only been reloading for a month or so, I dont think making 4 or 5 rounds of different seating depth once you have carried out your OCW testing is beyond anyone? From a beginners point of view (myself) the hardest part I have found is accurately measuring consistent power weights so am looking for some better scales and a mini camera, the other thing being accurately measuring the rifles OAL, hence the recommendation for the Hornaday tool

 

Munkjak, you should be able to get any required load data from the internet, but be careful what you pick from. bullet manufacturers or powder manufacturers websites seem pretty helpful and a reliable source of data

[gbal]

Mark-OK,I can see where you are coming from-but seating depth is pretty fine tuning-you have the Hornady gizmo,and you honeymoon is near over....so get into CBTO and not COAL (Except for magazine length):read,twice-

 

Litz,Bryan Berger Bullets "Effects of COAL and CBTO" Pt1

 

10-20 thou off lands is usually good-individual rifles though are exactly that.

 

RE 'handloading-agreed,the economy gains really can only come from the reused brass case (components being equivalent-offset some manufacturers profit by volume sales.....but the case is close to half the cost in new ammo,so there is potential saving there...of course,allow for all the equipment costs-to get multiple case reloadings you'll need to anneal-if you spend £250 on annealing kit,thats about 400 Lapua 308 new brass-maybe OK..but if you get really keen/fun/ocd a £1200 induction system will take a lot of clawbaclk,

Ditto all the rest-(tuned) beam scale reading to a consistent .1g is nice....it's a VERY moot point whether much finer powder weighing will be noticeable in actual shooting (unless you are a top1000y competitor)-if its moa gongs or varmints to 400y,doubtful if you would even notice....not saying it isn't fun/has feel good factors etc....but 100/200 BR shooters typically don'r weigh at all-volume throw from Harrel class measure-and that man Litzhas WEZ analyses shwing very small % hit improvement on gongs....and that assumes perfection in every other component,including the shooter...!!

"Cost effective" has to be subjective,but kernel uniforming is OTT (see G Salazar Accurate Shooter) for most of us.

SAme applies to almost all equipment-and there is some substance to 'weakest link in the chain'-so good luck in accurate bullet retension measurement,then pressure measurement....to the kernel equivalent :-)

..and let me repeat,it does no harm -but it's not for everyone,even after a couple of months (actually,you'll need quite a few months income to indulge....to a first approximation,I'd estimate serious upgrades of reloading equipment have improved precision about .2 moa-and serious improvements in rifles/scopes at least as much-it isn't fully additive especially under field conditions,and in most instances beyond what is actually quite satisfactory performance.( .5 moa rather than .2 -the latter up to about £3k more..a lot of better kit of course is good over several rifles).

But I have just bought an annealer-hell,it's a hobby...not a survivalist minimalist challenge now- (done that-as a student for eight years).Enjoy,by all means upgrade but be realistic,not 'driven' by some probably elusive and false holy grail...not every rifle can get there,either. :-)

 

gbal

[Andrew]

Is the whole point of reloading not to make more accurate/ tuned ammunition for your rifle? Surely after finding the node or sweet spot with your powder weight then to further tighten your group size you would try adjusting seating depth? In order to do this safely you really need to know your OAL.

I think the other argument for reloading is it's cheaper but in my experience so far this is not the case, it's real good fun though!

When Lapua produces Match ammunition they measure no ones lands. They load quality ammunition to their SAAMI/CIP specs. It is no doubt good ammunition. There are a number of aspects of reloading that can be tuned to greater effect than worrying about the distance to the lands -especially for someone just learning to "roll their Owen" (sic) ~Andrew