A game changer for long range shooting with 5.56/223?

[Sherlock]

Nosler are known for fudging the BC figures. Maybe they "test" using different methods , or what ever - but the truth is, they knowingly overestimate their BC's - which by chance are always flattering to them and promotes sales. ( as done in this thread )

 

I would be astounded if the BC of the 70 grn bullets are accurate.

 

 

Below in an extract from B Litz testing. (sorry unable to insert tables )

 

ATB

S

 

 

Nosler and Litz BCs for the Ballistic Tip to determine the average overestimate which is 6.33%.

The Nosler 120 grain NBT in .284 had the highest overestimateat12.7%, with the 115 grain .257 NBT and the 125 grain .308 NBT also having substantial overestimates at 10.76% and 9.58%, respectively. Only two bullets, the 80 grain NBT in.243 and the 140 grain NBT in .277 in Table 6 are within 1% of the Litz measurements, which is Litz’s estimated uncertainty in his BC determinations.

There is significant disagreement between many of the Litz measurements and Noslers claims; however, Figure 6 shows good correlation between BC and SD, indicating uniformity in form factor, attributable to uniformity in ogive shape and boat tail angle. Nosler’s claimed BCs for the Ballistic Tip and Accubond lines yield a BC to SD ratio of 1.85, which would be Comparing Advertised Ballistic Coefficients with Independent

 

The independent test results yield a BC to SD ratio of 1.74, which is quite mediocre and unremarkable among boat tail hunting bullets.

 

Table 7 compares the Litz and Nosler BCs to determine the average overestimate of Nosler’s claims for the Partition, which is 4.26%. The Partition is a flat base bullet more noted for holding together and providing deep penetration in big game than for its aerodynamic design. The Nosler 175 grain Partition in .284 had the highest overestimate at 11.6%, and the 165 grain Partition in .308 also has a large overestimate at 9.0%.

The G1 ballistic coefficient versus sectional density (lbs/in2) was then plotted. Just as the last results showed from the Nosler NBT, the Nosler manufacturing company seems to be exaggerating their ballistic coefficients. The Nosler NBT is the bullet with the most overestimated of all the bullets studied, followed by the Nosler Partition.

[MarinePMI]

Initial independent testing of the RDF bullets indicate that Nosler is underestimating their BC's. They are extremely sensitive to the goof they had in the past, and so are erring on the side of conservative. The 140gr 6.5mm RDF is listed as a .331 G7 BC, but in actuality it is ending up closer to .341 for some (bigger cartridges with higher speeds).

 

Just looking at them, they appear to be a hybrid ogive (similar to Berger, but at nearly half the cost).

 

Finally, I can understand not pre-releasing them to Bryan Litz; he has ties to competitors in the industry.

 

Some have an axe to grind with Nosler. <shrug> Whatever. I could care less who makes them, especially if they shoot well and the price is right...

[gbal]

MarinePM1,I'm in agreement with your final comment-but that is an "IF"....though 'well' does not need to mean 'best'-and indeed we can expect differences in individual rifle preferences...and for many cost is seen as a consideration... Rifles which shoot poorly with eg Bergers (pre or post Bryan's association)tend to be few and far between..but that isn't per se a BC issue.more QC....and not the OP issue ....

 

BC is rather complex,being a function mathematically of mass,diameter and drag. Drag is probably not independednt of velocity.

That is clearly and honestly evidenced by Sierra,who publish three different velocity bands,with correspondingly different BCs reducing with velocity,for the same bullet .

 

It is hardly surprising then,if a cartridge case offering greater velocity potential,suggests a higher BC for a bullet...

 

We shall see how the Nosler actually shoots,which is what really matters ,I agree (though physics must be upheld,cost is from a different world...just compare prices in San Diego,with UK....!) You are way ahead!! Warmer too-which helps...

atb

gbal

[John MH]

If they are cheaper than SMKs or TMKs and are reliably available they will be a winner. If the Custom Competition bullets are anything to go by the quality and consistency will also be good.

[Andrew]

If they are cheaper than SMKs or TMKs and are reliably available they will be a winner. If the Custom Competition bullets are anything to go by the quality and consistency will also be good.

I agree. I have shot Custom Competition 69 grain out to 850 yards and seen remarkable grouping there and at all ranges in between. I have the RDF 224, 6.5mm, and .308 cal in hand and they are very "bergeresque" in form. As I said earlier, Nosler is loading them to magazine length. A few very good shooters in the US have simply been pushing this bullet in where their other 69 grain used to sit without changing anything else in the load. Nothing but praise. The reports on the 175 grn 30 cal RDF @ 2650 fps from the 308 have been pretty impressive.~Andrew

[furrybean]

Has anyone tried these in .308 flavour? Might be interesting for a 1000y option

[Chanonry]

Andrew,has there been some ...errr..discussion on the likes of Snper's hide about the BC claims?

 

One wonders how what seems to be a 'hybrid' secant/tangent design with small meplet can steal such an advantage over Berger;my brief reading ended when it was claimed Nosler were using 'lab' calculations,more reliable than real shooting".

I suspect no-one yet knows,so it will be interesting indeed to see how they shoot for you,and whether you can shoot clear into the Dakotas before drops get above twenty four inches!

I see the 69 Nosler Competition BC.305 @2900 does indeed drop more than 69 Sierra BC .338 @2850 and 69RemBT BC.336@3000- at 800y its 236",230" and 199" so there's three feet already on the table,for a moderate BC increase,same fps.

 

All hinges on the BC value.....however measured,real firing is the real test. I think the Dakotas are a state too far,though! :-)

Keep us posted,Andrew.

 

g

 

Think I saw something from Litz re this style in another calibre. Can't find it now. Gist was, well designed bullet but the claimed bc is misleading and it does not have the ballistic advantages 'claimed'. But we knew that anyway just by looking at it. It can't have geometry very similar to other bullets yet have a markedly better bc.

 

Doesn't make it 'bad'. Losing the chamfer off the tail and putting on a proper boat tail is bound to improve performance relative to similar Nosler bullets. In some ways it is not yee haa, its just doing what they should have done in the first place.

[Andrew]

 

Think I saw something from Litz re this style in another calibre. Can't find it now. Gist was, well designed bullet but the claimed bc is misleading and it does not have the ballistic advantages 'claimed'. But we knew that anyway just by looking at it. It can't have geometry very similar to other bullets yet have a markedly better bc.

 

Doesn't make it 'bad'. Losing the chamfer off the tail and putting on a proper boat tail is bound to improve performance relative to similar Nosler bullets. In some ways it is not yee haa, its just doing what they should have done in the first place.

How timely! I just ordered another 1500 two nights ago!

 

I have been shooting these bullets for a little while now and they shoot flatter than anything else I've shot. Frankly, I really don't care much about Litz:. From what I've seen, if it isn't in a Berger box he doesn't think much of it regardless. Maybe I'm being unfair and maybe the BC's aren't correct. (MarinePMI's post above is enlightening.) I do care about what works and these bullets match my ballistic printouts within minute of density altitude. Add this into the mix: My cost from Nosler with the Military / First Responder discount is $13.77 per 100. Makes Bergers seem an extravagance. Call me cheap, but I can afford to shoot these as much as I like. FWIW, they shoot half minute from my 1-8" 5.56 over open ground, prone. I've shot them successfully at distances further than any reasonable 223 shooter should have attempted....~Andrew

[VarmLR]

Are the RDF bullets available in Blighty yet? If the prices are right, it's got to be worth trying some.

[Chanonry]

How timely! I just ordered another 1500 two nights ago!

 

I have been shooting these bullets for a little while now and they shoot flatter than anything else I've shot. Frankly, I really don't care much about Litz:. From what I've seen, if it isn't in a Berger box he doesn't think much of it regardless. Maybe I'm being unfair and maybe the BC's aren't correct. (MarinePMI's post above is enlightening.) I do care about what works and these bullets match my ballistic printouts within minute of density altitude. Add this into the mix: My cost from Nosler with the Military / First Responder discount is $13.77 per 100. Makes Bergers seem an extravagance. Call me cheap, but I can afford to shoot these as much as I like. FWIW, they shoot half minute from my 1-8" 5.56 over open ground, prone. I've shot them successfully at distances further than any reasonable 223 shooter should have attempted....~Andrew

 

Cool

 

Don't want to be pedantic, but...

 

I didn't say the BC's aren't correct. I think there was a post above that stated they were exaggerated, not sure that is true either. It may (or not) be the case that it is a bc relating to a specific element of the data rather than the full range of flight to transonic. Who knows, but put any bullet of that line next to another of similar shape and calibre and you can make a reasonable stab at the bc, many of whom have 'test data' in the public domain. BC's as stated don't look like they can be simply compared to data from other manufacturers i.e. misleading.

 

We were just indulging ourselves in a pointless arcane discussion about BC for a particular bullet. Not whether it is a good bullet or not.

 

Otherwise I am not sure what you are on about really, shoot what you want for any reason you want, no one else is really going to mind.

 

I am glad you get $13.77/1000, I sure as hell don't. Looking at my (2 year old) reloading spreadsheet I paid $93 /100 (yes 100) for 180 Accubond. So Noslers are 'premium' at that pricing and no I don't fancy paying even more to lose a chamfer that should never have been there but with a crap 'stated bc'. For that money it had better be right and it isn't. Don't know current pricing as I now shoot Sierra most days and Berger on my birthday.

[VarmLR]

 

Cool

 

Don't want to be pedantic, but...

 

I didn't say the BC's aren't correct. I think there was a post above that stated they were exaggerated, not sure that is true either. It may (or not) be the case that it is a bc relating to a specific element of the data rather than the full range of flight to transonic. Who knows, but put any bullet of that line next to another of similar shape and calibre and you can make a reasonable stab at the bc, many of whom have 'test data' in the public domain. BC's as stated don't look like they can be simply compared to data from other manufacturers i.e. misleading.

 

We were just indulging ourselves in a pointless arcane discussion about BC for a particular bullet. Not whether it is a good bullet or not.

 

Otherwise I am not sure what you are on about really, shoot what you want for any reason you want, no one else is really going to mind.

 

I am glad you get $13.77/1000, I sure as hell don't. Looking at my (2 year old) reloading spreadsheet I paid $93 /100 (yes 100) for 180 Accubond. So Noslers are 'premium' at that pricing and no I don't fancy paying even more to lose a chamfer that should never have been there but with a crap 'stated bc'. For that money it had better be right and it isn't. Don't know current pricing as I now shoot Sierra most days and Berger on my birthday.

 

[Andrew]

 

Cool

 

Don't want to be pedantic, but...

 

I didn't say the BC's aren't correct. I think there was a post above that stated they were exaggerated, not sure that is true either. It may (or not) be the case that it is a bc relating to a specific element of the data rather than the full range of flight to transonic. Who knows, but put any bullet of that line next to another of similar shape and calibre and you can make a reasonable stab at the bc, many of whom have 'test data' in the public domain. BC's as stated don't look like they can be simply compared to data from other manufacturers i.e. misleading.

 

We were just indulging ourselves in a pointless arcane discussion about BC for a particular bullet. Not whether it is a good bullet or not.

 

Otherwise I am not sure what you are on about really, shoot what you want for any reason you want, no one else is really going to mind.

 

I am glad you get $13.77/1000, I sure as hell don't. Looking at my (2 year old) reloading spreadsheet I paid $93 /100 (yes 100) for 180 Accubond. So Noslers are 'premium' at that pricing and no I don't fancy paying even more to lose a chamfer that should never have been there but with a crap 'stated bc'. For that money it had better be right and it isn't. Don't know current pricing as I now shoot Sierra most days and Berger on my birthday.

I'm not writing with a nose out of joint, don't get me wrong. I often end up on the computer either early in the morning or very late at night. Some times my best literary efforts are staccato verse, at best. I don't mean to come across sounding so terse.

 

And yes, it's another discussion about BC. If you read the post by Marine PMI above, it mentions that Nosler, having had their tail feathers singed by earlier BC controversy, let these RDF's out for independent testing ahead of the market and the results were as stated in the Marine's post. The BC's were underestimated. This was reported on Sniper's Hide, from what I understand. As to Mr Litz. He has done some innovative work but I don't got to him, or anyone else, to get an opinion on a bullet. I just shoot it and see if it works for me. The reason I tried these in the first place was a PRS shooter I know sent me an email with the link and simply wrote "buy these". Otherwise, I might still be working my way through the thousands (literally) of other bullets I have.

 

Bergers on your birthday. I like that! Bergers are 50% higher cost here when compared to Sierra and almost 100% when compared to Hornady's offerings. Even if the Noslers weren't offered at such a deep discount, I doubt if I'd spend much more on bullets than the Sierras. Especially in 224 which doesn't get stretched too far as a rule anyhow.

 

I also have the RDF in 6.5 and 308 as well. I have shot the 6.5 and they are superb. I have done my best long-range shooting with my Tikka 6.5 CM using this bullet. I have yet to try the 308 but that will be soon.

 

When the RDF hit the UK you guys can give them an honest test. I don't think there will be many complaints.~Andrew