Elliott Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 What are the advantages and disadvantages of these please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Lyman's newest reloading manual states there is no advantage to neck sizing -neither in case life nor accuracy- in your average rifle. I neck size when i need to control rampant headspace in old military rifles, and I neck size the 22 Hornet out of habit, but I now FL resize everything else with no detriment to accuracy. I particularly enjoy small base full length resizing .223, 308, and 30-06 as I have several rifles, both auto loading and bolt, in each of these chamberings and this allows interchangeability. I strive to produce the best copy of factory match ammunition that I can which entails religious trimming, FL resizing, a well thought out powder charge appropriate for the job, and a bullet likewise suited to the purpose. I also crimp. Anyhow, having said the above, the next poster will probably voice an opposite opinion. Read up on it and try both. In a particular weapon one may be better than the other. ~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 This has been discussed at length on the Forum if you search back. Neck or full-length - it's still a pull of the press handle - why wouldn't you full-length size? There is no disadvantage to full-length sizing but I could think of one or two for neck-sizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliott Posted February 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Thanks. I'm currently FL resizing so I guess I'll just stick with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brillo Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 In my experience, there's only one disadvantage to F/L sizing and that's having to wipe the lube of the case body rather than just the neck. How long does that take? Small change eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Full length or neck only re sizing isn't quite a clean choice-most cases will need a full resize after a modest number of firings anyhow,to restore to spec-and that nededds FL-or a neck bump.....also remember we are in a few thou only-and that is hairsbreadth -but it can matter-wspecially for headspace ,so a bump every ,well 3-8 reloads,dependong on case design and of course load. Bushing dies have reduced any 'precision' advantage neck (esp arbor) dies once had.But as Andrew says,you need a very precise rifle indeed to reliably detect any precision differences -even if they are there-factory rifles won't show benefits,usually. FL does need lubrication-some will find this an inconvenienve,as Brillo mentions...I don't lube at all for neck sizing in Wilson arbor dies.Much less hassle,for me.No effect on performance per se. Short range precision shooters (100 Bench Rest) may find a small advantage from top neck dies,but long range shooters won't-swamped by other major dispersers,and smooth chambering/extraction have become important with the change to "fast fire before the wind changes" styles. FL is better for that. Likewise for any field shooting,smooth loading and a modicum of dirt resistance-FL-are more usefulthan any minute accuracy gain-even if there were such. Even more so for 'practical' shooters-any jam is serious.FL there too. Definitely add in man op-or semis-just a bit easier with FL. As said,FL for most casual,club shooters with factory rifles. The relative comparability of FL does though depend on comparable skill in reloading-there is more scope for sloppy mechanics with (screw in) full length dies,and concentricity is more vulnerable. Neck sizing predominantly may work brass less,and give more reloads....jury seems out on that-perhaps hot loads use up brass too fast for any f/n resize to matter much. Minor points-increasingly serious precision bench rest/F class get FL dies custom cut with their chamber reamer...not all FL dies are equal.....and not all dies are equal...and 'fashion' changes-sometimes for good reason... Bottom line,convenience aside,unless you have an exceptional rifle,can shoot it considerably sub 1/2 moa,under real conditions.....it's unlikely neck sizing will produce clear benefits,except in the minds of the fastidious...but Wilson's sure feel good. As ever,try both and compare....bearing in mind FL Redding comp bushing dies properly set up,in a good press will be better than any old worn basic FL die,in a worn press. Good shooting ,whatever. gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 George, You say "Neck-sizing may work the brass less and give more reloads..." If you read Tim Stewart's lengthy missive on annealing (by his university chum) it did mention than the work-hardening of the brass comes from the 'firing process' not re-sizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 George,You say "Neck-sizing may work the brass less and give more reloads..."If you read Tim Stewart's lengthy missive on annealing (by his university chum) it did mention than the work-hardening of the brass comes from the 'firing process' not re-sizing.Yes,hanks for that heads up ,Vince-one reason I said 'may'- and that 'the jury is still out.." and it may depend on hot loads' etc.There is some 'legacy practices/beliefs' on almost all reloading! I was trying not to be too prescriptive on 'brass life' either way wrt resizing,as I said later,probably other factors shorten life so much more ,it's a moot point rre FL/necking. But I'll have a read at Tim Stewart (university chums are not always reliable peer reviewers,but even so...) ..it's always a pleasure/relief to find lengthy commentaries-generally complexity can't be covered in a short sentence! Do you have a reference for it-probably under the chum's name?-I don't recall any detail from eg your long interview with Tim,but that was a whiles ago. It would be good to get some up to date stuff on annealing too-all this 'brass varies',so you need induction.....plausible-then it always is.....til we get into the Yogi Bera world of theory/practice agreements or not! g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Well, Tim posts under 'eagernoskill' - you might find it by looking under his posts - about four months ago I would guess. It was a very well researched paper with a few good points raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarovski1 Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 The gun pimp still holds the British record light gun 1000yds 5 shot small group of 2.6 inches, he knows all there is to know about reloading. Enough said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarovski1 Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 The gun pimp still holds the benchrest British record for light gun 1000yds 5 shot small group of 2.6 inches, he knows all there is to know about reloading. Enough said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyw Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 The gun pimp still holds the benchrest British record for light gun 1000yds 5 shot small group of 2.6 inches, he knows all there is to know about reloading. Enough said the truth is -he has a small army of elves that do all his reloading for him and it was his twin brother that shot that record, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
provarmint Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 the truth is -he has a small army of elves that do all his reloading for him and it was his twin brother that shot that record, Never disappoint Gary,lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannywayoflife Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 I used to neck size only using lees collet dies. I then found as has been pointed out every so often I'd have to fl size anyway. My mind got thinking (always dangerous with me!) and I thought the only way to make the case as close to the same every time was to fl size all the time. With the neck sizing the case shoulders will grow a tiny bit each firing hence the need to bump them eventually. I don't know anywhere near as much as some of these guys who've already posted but this is the conclusion I came to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliott Posted February 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Thanks chaps, I'll stick with my FL die. Bought x100 new Nosler brass cases yesterday so I should have a good run at things for a while. I ran them through the FL die, trimmed and chamfered just in case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Now you've blown my cover - does that mean I'll have to give up the record? PS - am I still bringing your 6BR on Sunday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That bald headed Geordie Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 I am the real Vince Bottomley. The Gun Pimp is an imposter!! PS. I AM Spartacus!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarovski1 Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 I'm sparticus........... lol I never mentioned your name out of intrest GP do you or dont you use that calibre anymore for 1k br Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagernoskill Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 The Thesis / paper on Annealling was a project I did with the people listed below that resulted in the papers RYAN STEVENSON (MENG MECHANICAL ENGINEERING WITH FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT) PROJECT SUPERVISOR: Dr ALEXANDER GALLOWAY : DEPARTMENT OF MECHANICAL AND AEROSPACE ENGINEERING Dr. Steven CANTOR : TWI : Metallurgist Involved 500 Lapua cases shot in stages and destroyed and scientifically analysed See bold bits below Abstract Reloading of brass 0.308 Winchester cartridges is common in high end target shooting. The work aimed to investigate the effects that successive firing and reloading, procedures have on Lapua manufactured 0.308 cartridge cases. During firing cartridges are exposed to extremely high temperatures and pressures and during reloading, a number of cold work processes are performed on the cartridges. The project was based on the reloading procedure used by Tim Stewart, a member of the British F class rifle team, who proposed and supported the work. The sample sets were designed to study the effects of reloading techniques such as neck turning and cartridge neck annealing. The production of the sample sets required 396 cartridges and 1260 rounds to be fired. Optical microscopy was used to examine cartridge defects and material microstructure. Material hardness was measured using a Vickers Microhardness tester. Residual stress was measured using X-ray diffraction and a scanning electron microscope was used to perform energy dispersive X-ray spectrometry to investigate the chemical analysis of the samples. The neck turning procedure was found to cause cracks to form at the base of the neck. It was suggested that this could be avoided by not neck turning so far down the neck of the cartridge. The research quantified the hardening of the cartridges over 5 firings and 6 reloading preparation procedures. The firing process was found to have a more significant work hardening effect than that of the reloading procedure. The neck turning procedure did not seem to significantly increase the work hardening of the material at the neck of the cartridges. The cartridge neck annealing process was shown to produce variable results. Possible methods of combating the inconsistent annealing results were suggested. Yes,hanks for that heads up ,Vince-one reason I said 'may'- and that 'the jury is still out.." and it may depend on hot loads' etc.There is some 'legacy practices/beliefs' on almost all reloading!I was trying not to be too prescriptive on 'brass life' either way wrt resizing,as I said later,probably other factors shorten life so much more ,it's a moot point rre FL/necking.But I'll have a read at Tim Stewart (university chums are not always reliable peer reviewers,but even so...) ..it's always a pleasure/relief to find lengthy commentaries-generally complexity can't be covered in a short sentence!Do you have a reference for it-probably under the chum's name?-I don't recall any detail from eg your long interview with Tim,but that was a whiles ago. It would be good to get some up to date stuff on annealing too-all this 'brass varies',so you need induction.....plausible-then it always is.....til we get into the Yogi Bera world of theory/practice agreements or not!g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagernoskill Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 I concur 100% with Vince FL versus NS The benefits and consistency derived from FL resizing far outweigh the potential advantages of NS.....IN MY DISCIPLINE Unless you have a Tight neck the NS only wont have a meaningful opportunity to effect the cartridge / chamber relationship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 Tim,thank you for the PMs,and references....I think it would be helpful to clarify/confirm that the research reported here concerns neck turning as stated (typically only done once)which is quite distinct from neck resizing (every reload).The OP and replies have been comparing neck resizing versus full length resizing;so this research ,as stated,does not bear directly on that issue-interesting though it is. If it really refers to 'neck resizing' then of course it is very relevant,if care is taken to distinguish 'cracks' from 'hardening',since it was 'firing'' that caused more 'hardening' (while 'neck turning' caused 'cracks'.) Cracks and hardening may well be related,of course,but would it help to clarify the reladingprocedures/consequent damage terminology? It is good to see technical measures being taken. g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 I'm sparticus........... lol I never mentioned your name out of intrest GP do you or dont you use that calibre anymore for 1k br No - I don't use the 7mmWSM anymore. Don't know why - it's still pretty well unbeatable but I just like playing with different stuff. The new season is about to start and I'm fixated on 6mm cartridges at the moment - 6mmDasher, 6XC and the 6mm Smack. All these will shoot sub half MOA at 1000 yards but, if it's windy...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarovski1 Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 That's pretty damned accurate.i will be keeping my eye on the results.ive watched many a video on youtube.those rests seem to hold the rifles rock steady.good luck for the coming season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyw Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 I am the real Vince Bottomley. The Gun Pimp is an imposter!! PS. I AM Spartacus!!! no your not- the real VB still has "most" of his own hair- unlike myself and you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted February 3, 2016 Report Share Posted February 3, 2016 Gary - am I bringing the 6BR on Sunday???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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