Cartridge options for 75/80gr Amax

[Big Al]

What speeds are you guys getting then for your respective .224's?

 

What are realistic speeds for .223, .22BR and .22-250 with 75gr and 80gr bullets

[gbal]

OK,just quick bit of researching: all with the same 80g Amax,which helps comparisons:

 

223 2800 fp

 

22BR 3150

 

22/250 3250

 

22/243 3250

 

These have to be reasonably comparable,but no doubt individuals may be able to exceed-with eg longer barrels,more tolerance of 'pressure signs' and frankly,individual rifle variations.

 

The 223 has to be in a lesser class-but still a very good performer,so long as it's not pushed too far;

 

the other three really are pretty much of a much -and quite impressive...more on drop/ drift in due course.*

 

 

I haven't done Ackley versions yet, and remember-these data do not perfectly control fot 'hotness' of loads-I don't think that can be done exactly,and certainly not easily-no measure.

 

* I think the drop/esp drift data will reveal that the best three run out of effective use pretty much at the same field distances...I usually take the point at which likely wind error exceeds quarry vital zone as about the ethical/practical limit...

 

gbal

[AnthonyR]

My 22-250 runs at 3144fps with the 77gr TMK out of a 26" barrel, I am sure it could go a fair bit higher but I found a sweet spot when developing the load and didn't bother trying to make it run faster.

[Sherlock]

My 22.250 runs at 3300 fps with a 75 grn Amax - in a 26 in LW tube.

 

Had this fellow at 410 yrds

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sherlock

[gbal]

Slightly revised data for the main contenders (a couple of loads were admitted 'hot') but really no big performance changes: all 224 80g Amax

 

223 @ 2800 ( 'warm'-a tad over saami)

22BR @ 3150

22/250 @ 3200

22/243 @ 3250

 

OK,how does the 223 do? 10mph,drop/drift in inches,200 zero:

 

400y 25/15 500 50/25 600 70/40

 

Assume a 20% wind reading error,and a 4 inch vital rabbit horizontal zone,then wind error is :

 

400y 3 inches; 500y 5 inches 600y 8 inches.

 

so we have an effective maximum probable hit distance around 450 yards.

 

Remember this also assumes a1/2 moa rig,good shooting,accurate distancing etc etc

 

It should be clear that the 223 is not a reliable,even ethical,first shot hit option at ranges beyond 450.

 

Walking in ,or better yet,no wind may change that a bit. It does though tie in rather well with the field data to date (see earlier posts in this thread.

It's also worth noting that this-at it's best- is none too shabby,and will cover rather a lot of rabbit shooting-

with tolerable costs (any costs should be tolerable though in live quarry shooting-if not,don't do it) and excellent barrel life etc etc.

 

Similar analyses for the hotter numbers held up by following the minor team(s) still in the rugby world cup-

and a dearth of reliable distance drop/drift 10 mph wind data for this 224/80 g combo...Quickload-for all the abuse it is subjected to-may be able to help? 224 80g BC .45 MV 3150 ;3200;3250 -they will all be pretty close so 3200 will do-from about 400 to 800y?

 

gbal

[Big Al]

Having thought about this quite a bit I can't seem to see past the 22BR for throwing the heavies.

 

What, if anything it loses to the 22-250 in terms of velocity seems largely irrelevant in real world shooting.

[Si-Snipe]

22BR gives me the warm and fuzzies. ? If I wanted a little more from my plinker it would be my choice.

[stephentri]

What is the realistic barrel life of each caliber.say they all start life shooting half inch at 100y after how many shots would you start to see your groups open up.

[Sherlock]

Having thought about this quite a bit I can't seem to see past the 22BR for throwing the heavies.

 

What, if anything it loses to the 22-250 in terms of velocity seems largely irrelevant in real world shooting.

 

 

Hi Al.. 22 BR a good choice and I think your absolutely correct, in real shooting terms , the slight velocity loss to the 22.250 , will make very little difference in the field. but the very same could be said of the 22.250 regarding accuracy, compared with the 22 BR .

 

Both my tight twist 22.250's will group under 0.25 moa - (consistently - and not a one off group for the album) Even if the 22 BR consistently grouped 0.20 - what difference will that really make in the field .... Answer NONE.

 

And that exactly what I found when shooting my 22.250 along side a friends tight twist 22 BR.

 

 

As far as barrel life - The 22.250 uses about 3.5 grns of powder more than the 22 BR (per shot) but delivers roughly 100 fps extra with the same load. I suppose you could drop the charge down by a grain and match 22 BRs ballistics . So in reality the difference is similar in comparing a 222 to a 223. .

 

If I were a betting man - I would say barrel life would be around (give or take a couple of hundred) .

 

22.250 - 2000 +

 

22 BR - 2300 +

 

223 rem - 3500 +

 

Much will depend on the way it is shot ( strings of shots) and powder used and how hard you push the cal.

 

 

ATB

S

[Big Al]

I guess for many people, myself included, confidence in a cartridge design could play its part.

 

The 22-250 doesn't have the pedigree of the BR case when you look at championships and world records, quite possibly that alone would be enough to sway it for me even though you make a good point. Cost of ownership would also be lower on the 22BR so again a small but nonetheless positive factor.

 

Im sure I read somewhere that due to a more efficient case design the BR offered a better performance per grain of powder ratio than the 22-250 and for the 22-250 to pull any real speed advantage at the very top end it needed to be pushed very hard?

 

Ive never owned either so dont belong to a particular camp as such but in common with Simon the 22BR gives me the fuzzies

[Big Al]

Looking at the respective BC's it would look like the 80's would be the best bet for 600yd+ ranges?

 

75gr Amax - 0.414 (Litz)

 

80gr Amax - 0.452 (Litz)

 

77gr TMK - 0.420 (unverified Sierra figure)

 

Based on 80's doing 3150 and 75's doing 3300 there is only an inch of drift between them at 600yds in a 10mph wind, I wouldn't expect that to be detectable and the 77 TMK's should fall somewhere in between.

 

I thought running 80's would make a bigger difference but it appears not? Of course this is theory rather than real world gathered data.

[Shuggy]

22BR gives me the warm and fuzzies. If I wanted a little more from my plinker it would be my choice.

Isn't the BR case a bit tricky for magazine feeding in some rifles? However I believe that it's fine in single-stack Tikkas and the like.

 

Also, some people may be put off by the thought of custom dies and case forming.

[Sherlock]

Looking at the respective BC's it would look like the 80's would be the best bet for 600yd+ ranges?

 

75gr Amax - 0.414 (Litz)

 

80gr Amax - 0.452 (Litz)

 

77gr TMK - 0.420 (unverified Sierra figure)

 

Based on 80's doing 3150 and 75's doing 3300 there is only an inch of drift between them at 600yds in a 10mph wind, I wouldn't expect that to be detectable and the 77 TMK's should fall somewhere in between.

 

I thought running 80's would make a bigger difference but it appears not? Of course this is theory rather than real world gathered data.

 

 

Al... Don't think your figures are quite correct.

Personally - and after starting this 22.250 shooting 80 grn Amax - I switched to 75 AM.

 

There's more to it than just BC - For example, the 80's don't expand as reliably as the 75 's IME.. I know a few others who have found exactly the same. The 77 TMK are devastating.

 

 

75 AMAX - 0.224 - Hornady BC 0.435 - (BC Litz) .0.424

 

80 AMAX - 0.224 - Hornady BC 0.453 - (BC Litz) .0.463

 

 

ATB

S

[AnthonyR]

The main problem with the A-Max is the build quality is nothing like consistent enough IMO, even though they look better on paper, real world experience tells me they are not the best choice.

[Si-Snipe]

Al the figure you are quoting for the 77 TMK is the highest BC figure not the average over the entire velocity.

The highest figure for 80's is 0.486 and 75's 0.447 to offer you a more relative comparison.

[Si-Snipe]

All that considered I'm not budging from TMK because they are so much more accurate and consistent in my rifle. Plus they are hand grenades too. ?

[Big Al]

 

 

Al... Don't think your figures are quite correct.

Personally - and after starting this 22.250 shooting 80 grn Amax - I switched to 75 AM.

 

There's more to it than just BC - For example, the 80's don't expand as reliably as the 75 's IME.. I know a few others who have found exactly the same. The 77 TMK are devastating.

 

 

75 AMAX - 0.224 - Hornady BC 0.435 - (BC Litz) .0.424

 

80 AMAX - 0.224 - Hornady BC 0.453 - (BC Litz) .0.463

 

 

ATB

S

 

Happy to stand corrected Sherlock, I took those Litz figures from my Shooter bullet library, do you know where Litz has officially published them?

[Big Al]

Al the figure you are quoting for the 77 TMK is the highest BC figure not the average over the entire velocity.

The highest figure for 80's is 0.486 and 75's 0.447 to offer you a more relative comparison.

 

What figure have you settled on Simon for the 77 TMK's in your app? I assume you have had to make adjustments based on your real world data?

[Big Al]

Interestingly Ive been chatting with a guy vis Facebook who I sort of know, he is running a 22 Middlestead and is getting 3730fps with the 75 Amax.

 

The rifle appears to be a barrel burner with him needing to chase the lands after 300 rounds. At 600yds that would shave 3" off the 10mph drift figures from the 22-250 but with a barrel life expectancy of 1000 rounds it doesn't make me fuzzy quite like the BR

[soother223]

I'm shooting 75 amax out of a ppc quite effectively.

2950fps 24" tube would like to try some 69tmks though...

[justin credible]

 

Also, some people may be put off by the thought of custom dies and case forming.

 

You don't need custom dies, you simply use a standard 6br bushing die.

Neck down a 6br case, neck turn if needed, load and smile. Easy.

 

I've not shot the 75grainers in mine as the twist is too slow but the 52grainers are just touching 4000 fps

[gbal]

Interestingly Ive been chatting with a guy vis Facebook who I sort of know, he is running a 22 Middlestead and is getting 3730fps with the 75 Amax.

 

The rifle appears to be a barrel burner with him needing to chase the lands after 300 rounds. At 600yds that would shave 3" off the 10mph drift figures from the 22-250 but with a barrel life expectancy of 1000 rounds it doesn't make me fuzzy quite like the BR

Al,this sounds rather like a classic case of the rabbit varminter's disease: myxin ma digits.

 

22 Middlestead 75g @ 3730?

 

Well,the standard 243(same case/capacity) will give 75g@ 3300; or 57g (actually 58)g @ 3750.

 

However,if by some risky contempt of pressures,he is getting 75g@3730, (ie 430 fps above saami max-prob 300+ if its an Ackley) yes,it might well reduce barrel life (as well as rabbit life,and possibly shooter life).

 

 

I'd imagine the 22BR with 75g @ 3730 fps -please don't try this at home(loading)-would be a bit hard on barrels too.

 

This sort of fantastic/fantasy (ab)use is one reason I'm reluctant to take such "data" and print it here-I do agree though that the gains will be limited,so will show what this sort of loading will do in a safe chambering-next post!

After I've had another cappucino ,to recover...maybe his chrono was chronic-or it's one of these wild reverse engineered velocity claims,based on the measured drop at 7ooy,from the two bullets from the 5 fired that actually reached/hit the target,grouping at around 12 inches .....

g

[Big Al]

Al,this sounds rather like a classic case of the rabbit varminter's disease: myxin ma digits.

 

22 Middlestead 75g @ 3730?

 

Well,the standard 243(same case/capacity) will give 75g@ 3300; or 57g (actually 58)g @ 3750.

 

However,if by some risky contempt of pressures,he is getting 75g@3730, (ie 430 fps above saami max-prob 300+ if its an Ackley) yes,it might well reduce barrel life (as well as rabbit life,and possibly shooter life).

 

 

I'd imagine the 22BR with 75g @ 3730 fps -please don't try this at home(loading)-would be a bit hard on barrels too.

 

This sort of fantastic/fantasy (ab)use is one reason I'm reluctant to take such "data" and print it here-I do agree though that the gains will be limited,so will show what this sort of loading will do in a safe chambering-next post!

After I've had another cappucino ,to recover...maybe his chrono was chronic-or it's one of these wild reverse engineered velocity claims,based on the measured drop at 7ooy,from the two bullets from the 5 fired that actually reached/hit the target,grouping at around 12 inches .....

g

 

I pointed this out George but apparently the rifle has been shot over two different chrono's and the lad also has a friend with the same caliber and his is also doing 3700fps. The rifle has a 28" barrel which might help in conjunction with the load of 47gr of Reloader 22.

 

Either way, I couldn't live with the barrel life so for 3" less drift at 600yds I could manage with a 22BR and a slightly shorter 26" barrel.

[gbal]

OK,what can we get from an 80 + medium high BC bullet and how does it perform at distance?

 

Here's they are proprietary cartridges,giving top safe saami performance as commercially loaded,the first two are 6mm,third is 6.5.....this because these afre reliable valid data,and safe....unlike...well,we've done that...drop/drift inches 10mph wind

 

6mm 85g BC.404 @ 3600 400y 14/12 500 28/19 600 50/29 800 119/57

 

6mm 85 .360 @ 3500 14/11 30/19 51/28 123/55

 

6.5 100 .454 @3750 12/9 24/14 41/20 94/40

 

 

OK,using the 20% wind error criterion and 4" rabbit zone max ranges are about 515,515 and 575 yards

 

That's a lot more powder (think more than twice as much for an extra 100+ yards).

 

Note too,that a drop in BC(.4 to .36) and velocity (3600 to 3500) does not really affect max range in the two sixes.

Upping BC and velocity considerably does improve the 6.5 ballistics ( but only by about 60 yards.)

 

OK,we can extrapolate with some care back down to the faster 22s-they are NOT going to be 600y laser rays,but will be a fair bit ahead of the 223,nor will 700y be really viable,except perhaps for a very savvy shooter,in very benign conditions.

Pretty much what the very limited reliable field data are.

 

I take almost all the points of detail raised-though wwth some comment.

 

Cost is relative and individual-some games just take more to play-and there is a small cost in components for performance gains,and quite a large one in barrel life-the hotties will be about half the 223 life-in detail,dependent on how hot the rifle is run,both in terms of specific powders (hi energy or not),barrel heat,cleaning...etc etc.premium bullets might be needed for accuracy..and so on) .Dies may/not be much more-sometimes you can just use bushings...but most reloading won't be with £35 dies.

 

How much do you need-probably rather few shooters actually have 600 yard shooting on a serious scale. For occasional need,try the Spartan approach-when the sword is too short,step closer.(call it fieldcraft :-)

Some of the options are much more likely to be custom rifles-so more expensive-and it's a bit misleading to compare a custom rig with a factory rifle-not to say Bench Rest precision is always needed-always nice rhough-nor that some facrory rifles can be very precise.Just some though.

But it's wind reading that really matters,as the drift data show.That can't be bought.

 

Likewise,much of the BR's deserved reputation -6BR that is- derives from custom rifles,pretty unwieldy in the field,shot off very heavy rests -even more so....etc etc.....replication of their cutting edge precision is unlikely.

The better sixes will do it all,and more so-if you want 1000y target options (not in winter hoolie conditions),then they add that option,properly sped'd.223 class does not-that includes the lovely little PPC's-a delight,but just lacking enough in grunt for the heavier BC bullets to be in the mix-but superb for shorter distances.I note too,the current variability of Amax quality control.Berger may mitigate.

Tales of 1000y shots from lesser cartridges remind me of the 22rf warning on the box "dangerous within a mile'-quite so,but it was hard to be specific as to what was in danger of being hit a mile away. :-)

Shooting live quarry needs very high criteria-shooting at targets/gongs need not be too concerned with hit rate-or rather miss/wound rate.

Among the better cartridges,as above,there probably isn't much in it-probably within the individual variation between rifles-and importantly,shooter skill and especially experience with their rig.Most of the rest is subjective/personal..which is why I don't have a middlestead-I'll wait more years for the right bullet in 243,meanwhile using the 6BR,which outshoots the excellent 22BR...well,if we have to stretch out ...

Enjoy.

gbal

[Si-Snipe]

 

What figure have you settled on Simon for the 77 TMK's in your app? I assume you have had to make adjustments based on your real world data?

I've only tested to 700 yds. They were pretty much bang on. If anything I thought the BC was a little higher as I needed 0.5 MOA less at 680 yds but it's very hard to be that accurate in field conditions as air flow over the topography influences the vertical correction needed. It was fairly calm for the shots so it's a pretty good estimate.