Manson & PTG 'Accurizing kit's'

[Gundoc]

So, do any of the Smith's (Amateur or pro) use one of these kits?

 

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/action-bolt-trueing-tools/receiver-accurizing-system-prod7701.aspx

 

or

 

http://shop.pacifictoolandgauge.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=310_74_75&products_id=215&zenid=1gm2sgdhm4uqvdo9hrrj57m5k2

 

I'm re-barreling my Remi, so thought I might have a bash with one.

Thought I'd see if any on here use/ have used them.- Don't panic I'm not after your 'trade secrets', just keen to do it myself.

[The Gun Pimp]

Gundoc - $649! You cannot be serious!

 

Honestly, I never ceased to be amazed by the American obsession with 'accurising' Remmy actions when custom actions are so cheap in the US. How anybody earning a living as a gunsmith can re-cut the tenon threads, face off the action, true up the lugs etc. cheaper than the cost of say a Barnard S action is beyond me. And, you still have a flimsy action with a massive cut-out on the underside and another one on top.

 

At least 90% of a rifle's accuracy is in the barrel - gain from accurising or blueprinting is minimal. And, if done properly, the cost is prohibitive.

 

I've re-barreled Remmys that shoot good enough for anything but benchrest and, as many shooters find when they come to sell their 'blueprinted' Remmy custom rifle - it's still just an old Remmy and you won't get your money back.

 

Just re-barrel it and shoot it and save yer money! Put that $649 towards a custom action.

[dorg]

Very wise words from a very wise man.

[bradders]

Maybe he wants to learn how to do it

[Gundoc]

Although I agree with the gun pimp (and I've seen his builds shoot) I could indeed get a custom action for not much more than the kit, to me it's all about the learning process. In my day job I maintain and repair many many guns. However apart from some minor fitting work we don't do any true gunsmithing (and I always chuckle when I see the trade compared to gunsmith in recruiting literature)

 

However, maybe 500£ is a bit steep, I may well just stick a Border/ Bergara on there.

 

As Bradders quite accurately says (can't figure out if it was sarcasm...) I'm just into learning all I can, I'm never going to be a 'gunsmith' but I do like the idea of doing as much as I can myself.

[The Gun Pimp]

Gundoc - I applaud your willingness to learn. But, i still feel that spending money on accurising a Remmy is not money or time well spent. At the end of the day, it's just too flimsy to do the job when you sling a decent weight of target barrel on it, plus that annoying 'ring of steel', cheapo extractor and weedy tenon........

 

A book worth reading is Harold Vaughan's 'Rifle Accuracy Facts' He sets out to debunk a lot of myths and in one chapter he puts electronic strain gauges on the front and rear ring of an action and measures the flex......

 

For me, if you want a decent action without spending a grand, the Savage Target Action is a great buy. Solid bottom, small ejection-port and on the latest version, they've better positioned the action screws - all for around £500 with a trigger!

[Gundoc]

Now that's an expensive book! Cheaper to buy a stiller or similar action than to buy the book!

 

Don't suppose you fancy lending it to me? I'll be at the club Sunday for mini rifle

[bradders]

Nobody will admit to owning one al they'll all have you believe they use a spider and indicator rods and single point chase the threads.

But I have a pic of Dave Tooley using one, and tools are made for a reason....to make the job easier.

They also make it more precise

 

 

One day everything made will be so perfect that Gunplumbing will die out, and I wasn't being sarcastic. I know why you want one.

Not everyone wants a custom action. There's plenty of Remingtons out there that are the pride and joy of their owners, and just like many things in life, sometimes those owners want them tuned up.

 

I'm sure the last thing they want to hear is someone berating their rifle with "You don't wanna do that, you wanna do this........whaddya wanna go and waste your money on that for?"

[The Gun Pimp]

I take your point Bradders and yes, it is the last thing a Remmy owner needs to hear about his pride and joy but I've seen too many shooters buy a basic Remmy - then they fit an aftermarket trigger, a new barrel, then a stock, then bottom-metal etc.

 

They could've bought a custom rifle for not much more.

 

Then it appears on UKV for sale..............followed by bump - bump - bump.

[The Gun Pimp]

Now that's an expensive book! Cheaper to buy a stiller or similar action than to buy the book!

 

Don't suppose you fancy lending it to me? I'll be at the club Sunday for mini rifle

 

Looked all over for the book Gundoc - I think I must've loaned it to someone - a forum member maybe? If so, please let me have it back so Gundoc can have it.

[Ronin]

I own the Manson Tools; kit, I've had it for 8-9 years and its very useful.

 

As Bradders points out Dave Tooley owns and uses the same system as do many other custom builders in the states (and probably over here).

 

Its straightforward to use and from the results of test groups from the Rem actions I've used it on, none have suffered a detrimental effect.

 

I take Vinces point about the Rem action but simply put, not everyone can afford a custom action and I do not charge people a fortune for second hand Rem actions or for "blueprinting" the action.

 

The kit certainly works, I don't use this soley during the process as I machine the action face, action lug abutments, bolt and bolt lugs separately on the lathe.

 

Setting up the action in particular takes some time which is where in reality most of the time is spent.

 

 

I also own H Vaughans excellent book…..

[The Gun Pimp]

One of the most significant differences between a decent custom action and the rattly old Remmy is bolt to body fit. PT&G also sell replacement bolts in different diameters - but no longer ship without appropriate paperwork.

 

I must admit, I'm amazed at the business in accurising Remmy actions in the States. I shot 1000 yard benchrest at Hawks Ridge a few years ago with Dave Tooley, Bill Shehane etc. There were over a hundred shooters but, honestly you'll find more custom actions on the line at Diggle!

[Ronin]

I think the final stage of a true blueprint - sleeving the bolt to fit the action is the most labour intensive and costly to do, which is why few offer it here - s it would add significantly to the cost (as would a replacement PTG bolt of the correct diameter)

 

The halfway house does work, though not necessarily if used on heavy barrelled BR and F class rifles

[Big Al]

Is there much real evidence that blueprinting the Remy action actually shrinks groups and if so to what degree?

 

Ive got two 'slack' factory Remy actions, one has a Walther and the other a Pacnor barrel, both are very accurate. I really do wonder if the need for such blueprinting stems from the American gunsmiths convincing gullible shooters they really need it and in turn creating work for themselves?

 

At what level of shooting would someone really need a truly blueprinted Remy action and actually how much difference would it make?

[The Gun Pimp]

Big Al - I think you've summed it up pretty well...........

[baldie]

If thats the case, then why bother buying a custom action ?

 

Perhaps Laurie might dig up an old article on a Remington I did for him, which had a semi-blueprint. It reduced its group sizes BY HALF and with a standard barrel.

 

The one part of a blueprint, which I have found makes no difference...is shimming, or fitting a tighter bolt. If the bolt lugs are bearing on the abutments squarely, the bolt cannot go anywhere upon firing, no matter how loose the bolt is. Look how many accurate Mauser actioned rifles have been built over the years, and that bolt is like throwing a sausage into a cathedral.

 

Truing up threads, and more importantly, the action face, lugs, abutments and bolt face do make a difference. Why bother going to the nth degree setting up a barrel,s chamber , then screw it onto an action that isn't true ? Like polishing a turd.

 

I am loth to fit a quality barrel to a rem these days without at least some remedial work....I,ve proved it to myself that it DOES make some difference.

[Ronin]

In addition to what Dave has said, if you read Vaughans book any intolerance in an action (lug interface, bolt face squareness, action face etc) has a detrimental effect on accuracy.

 

There is also the customer who wants to keep the donor rifle and replace the shot out barrel, the customer who has a limited budget but wants "the best" they can afford.

 

I do the truing on every rem rebarrel I do as part of the process - providing I get the go ahead, its 2-3 hours extra work and in the big scheme of things dent cost a heap more.

[Gundoc]

Well, there does seem to be some split differences here!

 

Might make this into a project, fired stock as is (remi SPS with sporter barrel), with new barrel, with old barrel trued up and with new barrel trued up.

[gbal]

Well, there does seem to be some split differences here!

 

Might make this into a project, fired stock as is (remi SPS with sporter barrel), with new barrel, with old barrel trued up and with new barrel trued up.

The data that will give best information on effects of truing action are(no other changes to rifle/scope/load:

 

Untrued action,pld barrel

Untrued action,new barrel

Trued action,old barrel

Trued action,new barrel

 

You'd have to run both the untrued tests before truing the action of course.

 

The old barrel, untrued and trued action;AND new barrel,untrued and trued action BOTH give clear comparisons on the effects of truing the action;though the second is probably the more interesting (as old barrels are shot out anyhow..and barrel has a much bigger effect on accuracy than action).

gbal

[Gundoc]

Well mine isn't shot out, has fired approx 200 rds.

only replacing as its no good for the kind of shooting on offer at diggle.

[bradders]

The data that will give best information on effects of truing action are(no other changes to rifle/scope/load:

 

Untrued action,pld barrel

Untrued action,new barrel

Trued action,old barrel

Trued action,new barrel

 

You'd have to run both the untrued tests before truing the action of course.

 

The old barrel, untrued and trued action;AND new barrel,untrued and trued action BOTH give clear comparisons on the effects of truing the action;though the second is probably the more interesting (as old barrels are shot out anyhow..and barrel has a much bigger effect on accuracy than action).

gbal

 

The part in red would be an issue, as if you truly true and chase the threads you'll be going oversize by around .010"

This migt not make a huge difference, but it is a difference none the less.

 

Gundoc, if you really want to make it a project, you can borrow my Manson Kit (been using one since about 2004) and save yourself a few q

[bradders]

The data that will give best information on effects of truing action are(no other changes to rifle/scope/load:

 

Untrued action,pld barrel

Untrued action,new barrel

Trued action,old barrel

Trued action,new barrel

 

You'd have to run both the untrued tests before truing the action of course.

 

The old barrel, untrued and trued action;AND new barrel,untrued and trued action BOTH give clear comparisons on the effects of truing the action;though the second is probably the more interesting (as old barrels are shot out anyhow..and barrel has a much bigger effect on accuracy than action).

gbal

 

The part in red would be an issue, as if you truly true and chase the threads you'll be going oversize by around .010"

This migt not make a huge difference, but it is a difference none the less.

 

Gundoc, if you really want to make it a project, you can borrow my Manson Kit (been using one since about 2004) and save yourself a few quid.

 

I was shown how to do it the hard way (i.e. setting up the receiver in a spider in the chuck with indicator rods and dial gauges) by Derrick Martin back in 2003, but he said that the better way was to use one of the kits.....unless you didn't want to spend $450, which is what it was then.

I also learned how to square bolt lugs using a steady, open up and bush a bolt face and machine for a Sako extractor.

That said, I don't weld/silver solder any more due to bottle rental prices and an eye problem and you can get bolts made.

 

As for bolts, forget PTG and all the licensing cobblers, John Carr is currently making a bolt for me to fit a Rem action with a PPC bolt face and Sako extractor.

Prices are very reasonable too and the quality of the bolt is top notch

 

Baldie will vouch for this bolt.

Dave?

[gbal]

Well mine isn't shot out, has fired approx 200 rds.

only replacing as its no good for the kind of shooting on offer at diggle.

OK-the logic holds (I did say 'old barrels are usually shot out'-not always shotout)-if you change both action and barrel together without comparisons as specified,conclusions are compromised. Acually since we can reasonably assume that old barrels are worse than the y were when new,it's a positive that your old barrel isn't a worn out barrel.....the crucial words/variables are 'old' and 'new' -but there are two of each.

But it's a 'bonus' that you may retrieve a useable (old) barrel with plenty life left. Be nice to have clear before /after data too...at least for one rifle-the basic point of 'public' interest!

 

Bradders-yes,but its the nearest we can get,so best to do it-it's easy to discard data-if legitimate-afterwards,but impossible to get some if it isn't done before irreversible changes are made.

Many,many wished for 'experiments' are confounded because there is one missing bit-quite often,what was it like before the changes -ie no baseline,and very often,no 'control condition'-how did it shoot without modificaton/component x.

g

[Gundoc]

 

The part in red would be an issue, as if you truly true and chase the threads you'll be going oversize by around .010"

This migt not make a huge difference, but it is a difference none the less.

 

Gundoc, if you really want to make it a project, you can borrow my Manson Kit (been using one since about 2004) and save yourself a few quid.

 

I was shown how to do it the hard way (i.e. setting up the receiver in a spider in the chuck with indicator rods and dial gauges) by Derrick Martin back in 2003, but he said that the better way was to use one of the kits.....unless you didn't want to spend $450, which is what it was then.

I also learned how to square bolt lugs using a steady, open up and bush a bolt face and machine for a Sako extractor.

That said, I don't weld/silver solder any more due to bottle rental prices and an eye problem and you can get bolts made.

 

As for bolts, forget PTG and all the licensing cobblers, John Carr is currently making a bolt for me to fit a Rem action with a PPC bolt face and Sako extractor.

Prices are very reasonable too and the quality of the bolt is top notch

 

Baldie will vouch for this bolt.

Dave?

Very decent of you to offer Bradders,

I May well take you up on that. hopefully ordering my barrel in the next week or so, so will let you know.

[baldie]

Indeed Mark,

John bolts are every bit as good as anything out there and far better than most.

If it wasn,t for the fact that I,ve proved to myself that fitting tight bolts makes no discernible difference , I would order a raceway reamer from PTG and fit them myself into remmy's as an option.

They are perfect however for the purpose you needed one for , i.e. a bolt swap for a non std bolt face. It makes more financial sense to replace the bolt rather than open up a smaller one and fit a sako extractor.

 

The experiment I ran [ from my own pocket ] was to have 2 bolts made . This was for my 22Br Valhalla rifle. Both have identical headspace.

 

One runs a bolt to body clearance of 0.002"and is the bolt i use normally. The other runs at 0.001"and is what most people would consider to be a pretty tight fitting bolt. Remember, these bolts are running these tolerances along their length, and in full contact with both both receiver bridges.

This is where the uneducated trip up. They pick up a Barnard, or a BAT and believe the tolerances are the same. They are not. These actions run with a slot cut in the bolt for the bolt release, and thats where the tightness is...it isn't on the bolt/action body clearance. Remove the bolt stop and see if it feels as tight.....it won't.

 

The tighter bolt shot no better in my rifle.

 

Ever wondered why the best factory action out there shoots so well ? The Savage ? It has a floating bolt head basically. The bolt head can level itself as its turned into battery, giving the effect that both bolt lugs are bearing 100% as in a properly blueprinted action.

 

From running my own experiments in virtually every stage of blueprinting, I know what works, and what does,t. Some of it gives real accuracy gains, and some of it is simply turd polishing at the customers expense. Most people who know me and my work know that does,t happen at my shop.

 

I've had this conversation many times with people now. Blueprinting is fine and is what to do with a rem as its rebarrelled if the customer ALREADY OWNS IT. People ask me for a new blueprinted rem, and I then point them towards my Thor action which is my basic custom action, because there is little difference in price these days, and a custom action will always be a better financial purchase.

 

It won't however, shoot any better than a correctly trued action.

 

Because True is True.