Rifle in vehicle

[oaken]

Where do you stand with rifles in a vehicle?

I have a van that I use as a camper and would like to tie in a Roundhouse shoot with a week in Cornwall doing some fishing and surfing.

I can make a hidden, lockable compartment but would it be considered irresponsible to leave a vehicle in a remote beach car park with a rifle in it regardless of how well hidden/locked it may be?

Appreciate advice on this.

Rup

[Offroad Gary]

You could just lodge it with rfd after shoot (walkabout if hes there) or sign it onto someones spare slot and pick up later, if youre concerned.

 

I leave rifles in locked cars quite often, its easy to remove a functional part ( bolt/firing pin) and hide it somewhere else.

 

5 year mandatory for holding illegal firearm, sign on the lockable safe to that effect should put off most opportunists!

 

Until one gets nicked, you will never know if you have done enough in the eyes of the law

[gbal]

Rup, What do BASC and more crucially your FLO recommend?And you will be in another licensing authority area,so best to check with that FLO too.

In a similar situation,though a few years ago,I took mine to the local Police station,a few miles from where I was staying,by prior arrangement with them.No fuss or problems.I just did not feel comfortable with any other arrangement,including the safe at the chalet site office.I liked my fishing and windsurfing to be as free of other stresses as possible-and whole vehicules can be stolen!

Gbal

[maximus otter]

Here's what the Home Office Firearms Security Handbook 2005 says:

 

PART 7: FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION IN TRANSIT

Carriage by Road – Section 1 & 2 Firearms & Ammunition

Private Individuals

7.1 When carrying firearms etc in a vehicle, the following steps are considered to accord with

the duty to ensure the safe custody of the items.

Vehicles Left Unattended

7.2 Whenever possible, the vehicle should not be left unattended for long periods.

7.3 Vehicles containing firearms and left unattended for any length of time should ideally have

an immobiliser and/or alarm fitted.

7.4 Where possible, they should be parked in a position that would frustrate attempts to enter the

vehicle unlawfully. (eg with the boot close to a wall).

7.5 Where possible, they should be parked where they can be overlooked.

7.6 For preference, the firearms should be stored in the locked boot or other secured load

carrying area of the vehicle. They should be out of sight from passers-by.

7.7 In the case of estates, hatchbacks and similar vehicles, the certificate holder should ensure

that:

a) where fitted, the lid or cover of the load carrying area should be in place, or the

firearms are covered and concealed to prevent their identification;

if the vehicle is to be left unattended for any length of time, the firearm and

ammunition should not be stored together;

c) where the boot or load carrying area is the most practical place, ammunition should be

secured in an appropriate container ideally, but not necessarily, secured to the vehicle;

d) where it is practical, the bolt magazine or other operating part should be separated

from the firearm and either carried on the person, or kept in a locked container, ideally

secured to the vehicle, or concealed elsewhere.

7.8 Where firearms and ammunition are being carried on a journey which involves their being

kept away from their usual secure storage, the certificate holder should make arrangements to

ensure that they are, so far as is possible, secure. Considerations when firearms are being taken

to venues involving overnight or longer accommodation include:

a) obtaining accommodation that already provides secure facilities;

separating and retaining possession of integral parts of the firearm, eg the fore-end of a

shotgun, bolt of a rifle etc;

c) utilising portable security devices, ie security cords etc.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117636/firearms-security-handbook.pdf

maximus otter

 

[gbal]

Thanks,MO- we shpuld always start with the official guidance-it can never be completely prescriptive for all situations,but complying minimises the risk of prosecution.(if you could get one of those NHS surgeon rottweilers to moonlight with guard duty in the vehicule,that might be another deterent-though adds a different risk...!) :-)

While the above-having acted responsibly,in line with guidance-is a minimum must do,I was also concerned with the consequences of a theft,beyond that.EG the financial loss (£5K+ for an fclass/scope),and even if insured,the inconvenience of trying to replace it-could be many,many months.And just a little guilt about having contributed to gun crime,when a bit more might have been done. The police ,of course,have no statutory obligation to provide secure storage,for an FAC holder's convenience,but it would do no harm to ask,responsibly?

atb

Gbal

[maximus otter]

The police ,of course,have no statutory obligation to provide secure storage,for an FAC holder's convenience,but it would do no harm to ask,responsibly?

I'm an ex-bobby. I think that in today's risk-averse, elfin safety, "Everything not compulsory is forbidden" culture you'd be hard pressed to find a police station that would take in and store privately-owned firearms.

 

Most police stations don't have secure firearms storage capacity even for police-issued firearms, anyway.

 

m.o.

[mikeroz]

If it were me I'd arrange to lodge them with a local RFD for peace of mind. Try Helson Firearms. It'll most probably cost you less than any additional chain and padlocks you'll have to buy to secure ammo boxes to the monocoque of your vehicle, and then there's the time pratting around too. You know you'll still be worrying about your guns while you're surfing.

[brown dog]

If you're welding something the equivalent of a rifle cabinet to the vehicle; and it separately stores a 'main component' (ie bolt) and the ammo is similarly separately locked - I think you've more than taken every 'reasonable' precaution.

I think a sense of proportion and the concept of 'reasonableness' is being lost here. Nothing can be made 'unstealable' - well, not reasonably so.

Walk around the cars at a 'a large South East England range complex' with a jemmy on a Saturday lunchtime and you could arm a small army in an hour.

(Firearms storage at a local cop shop? The thought of that conversation makes I larf )

[Jamie]

I asked my FLO about this very subject around 6 months ago. He said that it was not acceptable to leave a firearm in my car even if I take the ammo and bolt with me! He told me, that if I did, it was highly likely I would have my fac revoked!

But having just read M.O's post, I'm thinking this was probably his personal opinion and not fact!

M.O is right about storing it at a "local" Police Station. They usually only have a "Temp" store, as the main firearms stores are usually at the Divisional/Main HQ. And having seen how my Force's property officer treated the guns I certainly would never leave them with him!

[Gandy]

I asked my FLO about this very subject around 6 months ago. He said that it was not acceptable to leave a firearm in my car even if I take the ammo and bolt with me! He told me, that if I did, it was highly likely I would have my fac revoked!

But having just read M.O's post, I'm thinking this was probably his personal opinion and not fact!

It certainly is personal opinion as I have heard of that exact circumstance and the chap is still shooting.

 

Your main problem Rup will be what you do with your keys whilst surfing.

[mikeroz]

Guys, we should be thinking about protecting the reputation of our sport here. For the sake of commonsense what's it going to cost to pop them into Helston Gunsmiths for a few days? £15 or £20. I wouldn't take the risk. Just do it, you know it makes sense.

If something did go wrong it's just not worth the hastle.

[gbal]

Guys, we should be thinking about protecting the reputation of our sport here. For the sake of commonsense what's it going to cost to pop them into Helston Gunsmiths for a few days? £15 or £20. I wouldn't take the risk. Just do it, you know it makes sense.

If something did go wrong it's just not worth the hastle.

Pretty much my point,Mike.Or one of them-there are three levels of responsibility-legal guidlines;self interest;shooting sports.

Doing as much as you can is just enlightened self/other FAC holders interest.Contacting police costs a phone call-I did say it was a few years ago,but the conversation went like this : Duty Sergeant "Yes,I think we can help you-it would be best if you phoned to say when you were coming in so that the firearms officer could be here .And ditto on collection"-I think 'normal hours' was implied-fair enough! It may well be different now.

(My rifle was in a hard case,so unlikely to get dinted/mishandled,but there is some risk-accepted-with any storage,even your own.)

The second issue is by asking,you have shown some initiative directly relevant to public safety-can't do any harm,if something does happen.It is evidence of you being 'a prudent man',as the legal phrase has it.

The very plausible scenario where vehicules are broken into (or,as I said,just driven away) is simply a statement of one aspect of the problem; it is in no way it's solution.While it may not result in your prosecution-good luck in establishing the precautions taken,if the vehicule isn't recovered- it does not address the other levels of concern,namely financial loss,substantial delay in obtaining a replacement,and contributing to 'firearms as a risk to public'.

Lodging the firearm(s) with an RFD seems the safest option,for peace of mind etc,and may well be cost effective,compared to an implausible attempt to convert a vehicule into Fort Knox.Oh yes,and nice point about the keys.As I recall,there are quite limited safe places inside a wet suit......

 

Let's hope that common sense prevails too-though as one of my sceptical old Professors used to mutter "Sometimes there isn't much sense,and it isn't very common." :-) He still had all his Faculties,too.

 

Gbal

[Orka Akinse]

Guys, we should be thinking about protecting the reputation of our sport here. For the sake of commonsense what's it going to cost to pop them into Helston Gunsmiths for a few days? £15 or £20. I wouldn't take the risk. Just do it, you know it makes sense.

If something did go wrong it's just not worth the hastle.

When I was getting divorced I never paid anymore than 50p per week per firearm to be lodged with a local RFD. Stop mucking about Rup and get them lodged and enjoy your holiday. Just dont chill too much to realise you left em with the RFD when you hit Bristol on your way home

[oaken]

Thanks, good and varied advice here.

I remember during my very first FLO home visit, being told that a firearm should only be removed from your cabinet to be taken directly to your permission, then returned directly and without deviation! Merely the FLO's opinion it would seem.

Reading the HO guidance, the fact that they state (in typical vague speak) that the rifle must be made safe implies an acceptance that firearms WILL get left in vehicles!

I can take the bolt with me when fishing, but surfing means leaving everything in the van!

Andy, I have a waterproof pouch in my wetty for my key and of course the scary dog will stay in the van!

I think using common sense about leaving the vehicle in a very visible/public spot will be the most effective security option regardless of contents.

No one breaking into a crusty looking surfers van would be looking for a firearm and chances are, if they found one, would leave it alone to avoid the grief of being caught with it.

As BD says, nothing can ever be 100% secure, just think of the gear that could be pilfered from the firing point on a busy day at Bisley!!!

So, does anyone know of an RFD in the Bude area that would be able to return my rifle on a Sunday evening?

Cheers

Rup

[mikeroz]

No disrespect but I find myself getting a little frustrated with you mate. Why don't you look on a map where Helston is and the ring them up and see if they can accommodate your needs.

I know you're most probably right about nothing likely to happen but there are some things in life which it's just not worth taking any risk whatsoever.

Here's a link to their web page.http://www.helstongunsmiths.com/default.asp?ID=380&CB=24%2F05%2F2014+13%3A29%3A32

[mikeroz]

If Helson is too far try this link for a list of Cornish Gun Dealers.

 

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/DealerSearch/All/Cornwall

[Orka Akinse]

No disrespect but I find myself getting a little frustrated with you mate. Why don't you look on a map where Helston is and the ring them up and see if they can accommodate your needs.

I know you're most probably right about nothing likely to happen but there are some things in life which it's just not worth taking any risk whatsoever.

Here's a link to their web page.http://www.helstongunsmiths.com/default.asp?ID=380&CB=24%2F05%2F2014+13%3A29%3A32

I agree.

 

Leave the flippin thing in the car and if it gets nicked get your story straight remember this email thread is evidence........

 

Simples....

[oaken]

No disrespect but I find myself getting a little frustrated with you mate. Why don't you look on a map where Helston is and the ring them up and see if they can accommodate your needs.

I know you're most probably right about nothing likely to happen but there are some things in life which it's just not worth taking any risk whatsoever.

Here's a link to their web page.http://www.helstongunsmiths.com/default.asp?ID=380&CB=24%2F05%2F2014+13%3A29%3A32

No disrespect to you either Mike.

Apart from Helston Guns being nearly 70 miles in the wrong direction from where I plan to stay, I have had dealings with them that have resulted in me not wishing to deal with them again!

Rup

[mikeroz]

Fair enough Rup, I didn't known that. Hopefully you might find my last post useful. You could also use google to see if there's anywhere closer in Devon too.

 

Edited: Devon list too.

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/DealerSearch/All/Devon

[oaken]

Thanks Mike, I followed your link.

Currently going through the list in gun trader but half the numbers don't exist. In fact one was a mobile phone that someone had just bought at a bootsale!

I will post again when I get a result.

[walkabout]

G'day Rup

If I am at Roundhouse, I will take the rifle for you while you go play.

I can meet up afterwards and do the change over

 

And it won't cost you a penny!

 

Mark

[oaken]

Thanks Mark.

Might well take you up on that. :-)

[Ronin]

I believe that so long as you take reasonable precautions, you would not be criticised if something happened.

 

What I mean is this:-

 

Rifle (minus bolt and ammunition) locked in a case in vehicle or in a soft case with a steel cable (of small enough diameter to pass through the mag well padlocked to the vehicles structure via a load loop)

 

You could leave the bolt in the car hidden and ammunition and have the rifle with you in a hotel room - something I often do (or leave rifle in car and have ammunition and bolt with you)

 

I have a lockable peli-case for bolt and ammo (small 100 round count) that I can padlock and cable lock to the vehicle.

 

Either way your better doing SOMETHING, than having all bits with you in the vehicle and it get broken into and stolen.

 

If you've the means to make up a lockable storage area in the camper id so that, but I would still remove the bolt and store ammo separately.

[Offroad Gary]

I'd be more concerned for the dog..

 

Roast lurcher anyone?

[gbal]

Andy, you are quite right,that reasonable precautions are way way better than none...common sense.

My tame legal eagle agrees that there might be some issues around whether leaving the stuff,while you go off for some extended time-on some other protracted jolly-is convincingly a prudent act,or even 'reasonable'-it's a reason,but perhaps not a good enough one? Perhaps a sacrificial surfing board on the roof rack-last season's might have less value than the rifle parts? I have a few that could go to a bad home! :-)

Gbal