Discussion about actions.....

[Spuhr]

Traditionally long range rifles have been built on Remmy 700 and similar actions and as that is the standard idea in USA everybody must continue do so...... or?

 

Here is the way I look at it:

 

1. Stiffness and accuracy

It's crucial for accuracy that the action is stiff. That means the smaller ejectionport the action have, the higher will the accuracy potential be. I never belived that in the past but its so interesting to have a look on the Sako/tikka family of rifles. TIkkas shoots generally far better than sakos (TRG excluded) and they are produced in the same factory, by the same machines and using the same barrels

Also, Sakos are more expensive.

So why?

Only serious differance that I can see is the action.

Funny thing is that I have handled a lot of Tikkas with serious custom grade accuracy.

And they are not even bedded.....

Malcolm cooper realized a long time ago that stiff actions and good beeding a superier combination, mostly of us to, exept that we don't use stiff actions....

 

2. Open sights?

Rem700, winchester model 70 and Mauser 98 ( I loves Mausers!!!) are all inteneded for open sights and not for scopes.

The rear bridge over the bolt are lovered and often made on a belt sander by hand and the top of the actions are rarely very uniform.

If a mount should go on the top of it, you often have to bed it to compensate for crockedness.

The ejection port is big to make loading from top easy, a feature we don't use as we use separate mags and a feature we destroy by putting a picatinny rail there.

The action is everything but stiff....

So really why use actions designed 60-110 years ago for normal hunting with open sights for a long range gun of 2011?

Why?

 

3. scopemounting

An approiate action will of course have integrated rails for the scopemounts.

The name of the action is pretty uninteresting, but if we look at the top of the avaible actions we have a number that is really good and have this feature, such as:

AI AW, TRG, Surgeon, Tikka T3.

Just use the integral rail and the scopemount is likely more stable and less prone to loosen than a screw on system.

There is really not any reason to have more separate parts than absolutely needed, espesially not in the sighting system......

 

 

I look forward to a serious debate regarding the actions.

Only by penetrating an object can lessons be made, and I belive that mostly of us just do like everybody else without thinking about it.

Håkan

[Chris-NZ]

Forget the open sights, those are only for NRA shooters or old-fashioned guys..

 

A stiff action and integral dovetails can only aid accuracy. T3 actions, despite being somewhat unfashionable it seems, are definitely shooters on average. They are clearly designed for cheaper manufacture but it works. That's not to say they can't be improved but they have inherent useability.

 

Are you thinking of building a new rifle?

 

Chris-NZ

[brown dog]

He's an observation:

 

If you hold an AW action and a tikka action; they almost look 'related'. Funny old thing

[eldon]

 

Only by penetrating an object can lessons be made, Håkan

 

Ummm .......... theres a line there somewhere isn't there

[Ronin]

There is something in that statement about the Tikka / Sako actions.

 

Early Tikka / Sako actions were very similar and the ones ive worked on produced very accurate rifles - however, the Sako 75 / 85 variants,,,never quite as good as the earlier models

 

 

The Tikka T3 for all its faults does make an excellent and accurate shooting when re-barrelled / re-stocked, as do most Tikka actions.

 

Personal choice would be the M65, 595 / 695 models.....

[Spuhr]

Ronin

 

Why rebarrel Tikka T3?

A number of those I have tested shoot better than mostly customguns.

Seems like a lot of people rebarrel because everybody belives its a necesitty.

 

I do personally prefer T3 over all older Tikkas.

The actions are stiffer, there is a smaller ejectionport that gains the stiffness and now there is also loads of good aftermarket parts for T3, stuff that not are availble for the older actions.

And as the T3 have a full lenght rail on the top, there is a perfect rail for scopemounting, something the older tikkas don't have.

 

So in my opinion, with a limited budget, a Tikka Varmint with its factory barrel is a perfect base for any kind of accurate rifle.

With a larger budget there is Surgeons and loads of other top of the line stuff that is great, but the budget has to be considerably larger.

 

Håkan

[MJR]

Why rebarrel Tikka T3?

 

Probably to get the desired calibre if its not a standard factory option. Also if its a light weight sporter and multiple shots are required then a heavier weight barrel is needed? I agree regarding Tikka standard barrel accuracy. I have a .243 chambered 595 and its very accurate. I will be rebarreling it shortly but only because I want a faster twist to stabilise heavier bullets.

 

On the subjects of actions, what are recoil lugs all about. Yes I know they transfer the recoil load to the stock without stressing the action bolts but what a horrible way of achieveing that goal. In engineering terms trapping a lug between two supposedly accurately machined components cannot be sound principal. Also the lug must apply an upward bending action on the barrel shoulder as the shot is fired - does this make barrel whip worse? Actions with intergral lugs must be better surely?

[Scotch_egg]

Mike, I am glad you brought up the rcoil lug issue. I don't understand why Remmy + clones use the barrel mounted lug and Tikka made do with a small peice of steel neither attached to the stock or action.

 

Sureley there is a better method?

[Spuhr]

It's funny, there has world wide been lots of discussions about the weak recoillug of T3, at the same time as everybody are so satisfied with the TRG rifles.

Funny thing is that the sizes are the same and only differance is in material (steel for TRG, alu for T3)

I have never seen the steel version as any problem.

 

When it comes to integral recoillug or not, I have never really seen any accuracy differance.

If the choise would be up to me, I would certainly chose an integral, but I don't know that there is any measurable differance.

 

Håkan

[ejg223]

If the stiffness in an action is an issue, then one would be able to measure the elonguation under load.

How much was measured? In a Remmy, Howa, T3 and so on? Only if one knows where what is stretched then one can work against it.

I don't think T3's are more accurate than other rifles, the one I bought was the least accurate rifle I ever bought and we had bad

experience with Sako. If I had to bet my life on a Euro factory rifle out the box when it comes to accuracy then it might be a CZ.

I still have the T3 and she is getting slowly better with some work done, the sako is an old action which was re-barreled and shoots excellent.

The Remington I had shot well out the box as did a Howa and a CZ.

edi

[Gunsgobang88]

Mike, I am glad you brought up the rcoil lug issue. I don't understand why Remmy + clones use the barrel mounted lug and Tikka made do with a small peice of steel neither attached to the stock or action.

 

Sureley there is a better method?

Hi Scotch Egg,

 

It's because in most cases making the recoil lug a separate item reduces manufacturing costs. This factor has a different 'weight' depending on the type of manufacture, i.e. from forgings, investment castings, single operation tape controlled machines or fully cnc,

 

Cheers

 

Alan

[terryh]

Gents,

 

Interesting discussion and points being made but as it's in the 'tactical' section and we are 'bloody civies' and not military or LEO so we can confine our view to tactical comps etc.

 

From experaince a tactcal comp is not won by the targets you hit but buy the one's you miss i.e. it's not the rifle but you who misses.

 

Most posts are about getting the last mm of group size down, great, very nice, but if you cannot call the wind to a couple of mph at reasonable distance (300 yards plus) or can shoot from all positions strong and weak shoulder or work out a basic ballistic solution to the prevailing conditions it does not matter what action you're shooting your going to miss.

 

I think sometime we are trying to pick the fliy *hit out of the pepper

 

Get a rifle that works and go an practice, when you are consistently in the top 5 at a tactical comp then worry about the detail to gain you those last few points.

 

Brgds and seasons greatings Terry

[brown dog]

I'm with MJR's view; putting an asymmetric load into the base of the barrel at the moment of firing is a bit counter-intuitive. In his book, Vaughn didn't even attempt to examine the effect of a recoil lug; he took it out of the equation from the outset with his recoil isolator - I'm guessing that he saw it as a 'no brainer' and focussed on less obvious stuff.

 

Mike, I am glad you brought up the rcoil lug issue. I don't understand why Remmy + clones use the barrel mounted lug and Tikka made do with a small peice of steel neither attached to the stock or action.

 

Sureley there is a better method?

 

 

I guess siting the lug at the rear would be another improvement yet.

[brown dog]

Gents,

 

Interesting discussion and points being made but as it's in the 'tactical' section and we are 'bloody civies' and not military or LEO so we can confine our view to tactical comps etc.

 

From experaince a tactcal comp is not won by the targets you hit but buy the one's you miss i.e. it's not the rifle but you who misses.

 

Most posts are about getting the last mm of group size down, great, very nice, but if you cannot call the wind to a couple of mph at reasonable distance (300 yards plus) or can shoot from all positions strong and weak shoulder or work out a basic ballistic solution to the prevailing conditions it does not matter what action you're shooting your going to miss.

 

I think sometime we are trying to pick the fliy *hit out of the pepper

 

Get a rifle that works and go an practice, when you are consistently in the top 5 at a tactical comp then worry about the detail to gain you those last few points.

 

Brgds and seasons greatings Terry

 

Missed this one, sorry.

 

Yup, that accurately reflects the standard you're at Terry.

 

I, however, do have to worry about asymmetric receiver ring stress. You might understand one day.

 

If you practice more.

 

 

 

 

Happy Christmas etc

[terryh]

Matt,

 

Cheaky bugger! (shall we post our comparitive comp scores? )

 

Intersting comment re assymetry, things like tube guns and glue-ins I suppose answer this.

 

But, then again, a lot of F-class shooters use 'lugged' actions and their groups are not too shabby

 

Surely it's about the rifle being consitent, OK it might be bending, but if it 'bends' the same each time then who cares, does it matter?. The rifle you can fix at build.

 

Terry

[brown dog]

Aaagh, simultaneous post, you missed my gratuitous insult. Agreed - consistency. (and agreed: fly-sh't - but ballistic nerditry's interesting !!)

[terryh]

Matt,

 

Too fast on the old keyboard

 

I'm all for the better mouse trap, but know my limits (physical and financial ).

 

It is interesting (not too 'nerdy') to look at the finer points, but you can put doubts into your gear the same way!

 

Terry

[Spuhr]

If the stiffness in an action is an issue, then one would be able to measure the elonguation under load.

How much was measured? In a Remmy, Howa, T3 and so on? Only if one knows where what is stretched then one can work against it.

I don't think T3's are more accurate than other rifles, the one I bought was the least accurate rifle I ever bought and we had bad

experience with Sako. If I had to bet my life on a Euro factory rifle out the box when it comes to accuracy then it might be a CZ.

I still have the T3 and she is getting slowly better with some work done, the sako is an old action which was re-barreled and shoots excellent.

The Remington I had shot well out the box as did a Howa and a CZ.

edi

 

Edi

 

i belive all factories have mondays, some more than others.

I have seen a number of factory remmys shoot really well but I have seen more shoot not that well.

What impresses me on Tikka is that I have mostly seen exceptional accuracy out of them, and mostly shooting far better than Sakos.

As the action is the only differance betwen the two rifles that should affect accuracy.

 

Another funny thing, I have fired a number of T3 out of their cheap plastic stocks without bedding, and those have proven exceptional accuracy.

While if a remmy, winchester or whatever should shoot that good they need to be perfectly bedded.

 

So in my view, both the accuracy differance betwen sako and Tikka, and the fact that T3 normally shoots very good without bedding makes me belive that there is loads of differance in the stiffness of the action.

 

Håkan

[ejg223]

Edi

 

i belive all factories have mondays, some more than others.

I have seen a number of factory remmys shoot really well but I have seen more shoot not that well.

What impresses me on Tikka is that I have mostly seen exceptional accuracy out of them, and mostly shooting far better than Sakos.

As the action is the only differance betwen the two rifles that should affect accuracy.

 

Another funny thing, I have fired a number of T3 out of their cheap plastic stocks without bedding, and those have proven exceptional accuracy.

While if a remmy, winchester or whatever should shoot that good they need to be perfectly bedded.

 

So in my view, both the accuracy differance betwen sako and Tikka, and the fact that T3 normally shoots very good without bedding makes me belive that there is loads of differance in the stiffness of the action.

 

Håkan

 

You are right, a T3 in the original stock ist mostly better than remmy or howa in their plastic stock.

I compared when fitted into one of our stocks which are very similar between the three rifles mentioned.

Another point with stiffness. Blaser....doesn't even have a real action and still shoots.

Meaning that maybe the stiffness is overrated and that possibly the lug fit, straightness of the bolt

is more important.

I have learned a non bedded rifle can shoot on the bench but that is not hunting. A hunting rifle

needs to bedded just as it needs a trigger.

edi

[brown dog]

Another point with stiffness. Blaser....doesn't even have a real action and still shoots.

Meaning that maybe the stiffness is overrated and that possibly the lug fit, straightness of the bolt

is more important.

 

The consistency of the barrel vibration is the key - the blaser anchors the base of the barrel by different means, but anchor it, it does.

I visualise this as like trying to predict exact x,y,z movement of the end of a tuning fork if the fork is pinged when standing in a lump of rubber, or hard-anchored in a large steel weight.

[Spuhr]

But in the blaser case the barrel is attached to a chassi that have a farily long contact area to the barrel.

Belive there is some stiffness still.

 

Do you othervise have any explanation why the T3 generally shoots better than the Sako even tough the same barrels are used in both guns?

 

In the past I used to compete in 300 meter target compettions, here in sweden we at the time used converted m96 military rifles exclusivly and some of those had extreme accuracy.

As a result I looked at the stiffness discussion as ###### for many years........

But now I belive the bedding compensated for the lacking stiffnes in the action and the action got stiff that way.

 

However when in 2011 building an accurate rifle and spending loads of money, its not more costly to use an action that is stiffer than to use a less stiff action.

That arises the question on (if I am right) why using an action where the accuracy potential lies in the bedding and not in the action.......

 

Håkan

[terryh]

Håkan

 

Do both - good action correctly bedded e.g.:

 

 

 

Have a good Christmas all

 

Terry

[Dan534]

6.5 or .308?

 

Håkan

 

Do both - good action correctly bedded e.g.:

 

 

 

Have a good Christmas all

 

Terry

[ChrisF]

Brown Dog ,

 

What are you donig with my action .

 

RE : The Tikka T3 , you should realise its just a 2 lug version of the TRG action ,

[terryh]

Dan534

 

6.5x47, 7SAUM in build

 

Terry