What's wrong with .223 ??

[David Hancock]

I love my .17HMR (that's going to start it off!) and have a slot for a .223 on my ticket BUT one rifle for vermin / fox 100 - 350 yards.

 

The .223 seems to receive bad press these days but I would have it accurised with a load to suit.

 

Hoverer, I'm leaning towards a .20 Tac built around 32gn V-Max - 40gn V-Max Tactical Varminter.

 

Thoughts welcome.

 

Thanks,

 

David

[Mike357]

Have you seen what Laurie Holland is doing with a 223 at 1000yds in the F class league? Still a competent round in the right hands?

[Scotch_egg]

You can't go far wrong with a factory .223.

 

Unless you are going custom rifle you won't get a .20Tac and then it's worth having a custom calibre to make the most out of it.

 

 

 

some days I wish I had never sold my tikka T3 .223 for pure ease of use.

[oaken]

Laurie Hollands 223 is not your average off-the-shelf hunting rig! But yes all the whiz bang fancy calibres available today will cost an arm and a leg to both buy/build and feed. They can also be very ammo fussy. A good 223 with a well developed load, a drop chart (BD's are great once you have an accurate load) and a half decent rangefinder will have you whacking stuff at longer ranges than you would expect. I had a rabbit at 405yds awhile back with my old Sako in 223. I also use it at 1000yds much to everybody's surprise, try that with your tac20 or 204 ;-). 223 brass is cheap and there is a huge bullet selection. S/H rifles are cheap and easy to come by too.

Rup

[Chris-NZ]

...

The .223 seems to receive bad press these days...

 

 

By whom?

It's only an "unfashionable" round, not an "ineffective" one.

 

Cheap to run, easy to load for and does an effective job up to at least 250yds, ie 90+% of most varmint distances in most places. Sure, it's not gonna tip 'em over at 600yds but how often do most guys -need- to shoot at that distance?

 

Chris-NZ

[baldie]

Thats a very good point made Chris.

 

I sometimes wonder how many of the "experts" know exactly how far 600 yards is ? Especially at night. Add the fact that i dont believe there is a lamp made that will positvley identify quarry at that range either.

 

I shoot a .223 more than any other calibre these days, in a variety of twists [practical rifle ] and its a very capable round, but its hard work at 600 yards in anything but perfect conditions.

 

Sure, Laurie does extremely well with his, and so did Norman Clark [another long range .223 pioneer ] a good few years ago, but both men will tell you, they are/were using very specialised equipment, and not your average .223.

 

That said , the round is a great, cheap shooting cartridge. My Dillon chunks them out by the hundred , i get through 500 rounds a month, sometimes more.

 

Love the mouse cartridge.

[6.5shooter]

I think Chris and Dave have pretty much nailed it here.

Very accurate and capable round but maybe not just in fashion due to a 20 cal obsession, which probably is marginally better but I still prefer the versatile 223 with a 1-8 twist which lets me shoot lightweight bullets and 75 grainers.

Lets face it, most varminting is done inside 300 yards and a 223 is certainly capablr of that!

Great barrel life, easy to load for, whats not to like?

There is no right or wrong, some calibres jus do it slightly better than others but it depeds what u fancy.

 

Garry

[AitkenD]

Yeah I remember Normans hand-tight switch barrels.

I miss my Mannlicher 223 match.....sooooooo accurate.

[6.5shooter]

Thats a very good point made Chris.

 

I sometimes wonder how many of the "experts" know exactly how far 600 yards is ? Especially at night. Add the fact that i dont believe there is a lamp made that will positvley identify quarry at that range either.

 

I shoot a .223 more than any other calibre these days, in a variety of twists [practical rifle ] and its a very capable round, but its hard work at 600 yards in anything but perfect conditions.

 

Sure, Laurie does extremely well with his, and so did

Norman Clark [another long range .223 pioneer ] a good few years ago, but both men will tell you, they are/were using very specialised equipment, and not your average .223.

 

That said , the round is a great, cheap shooting cartridge. My Dillon chunks them out by the hundred , i get through 500 rounds a month, sometimes more.

 

Love the mouse cartridge.

 

 

 

 

Dave,

What powder do u use through the dillon? Im thinking of switching over to mine to load as I find myself stuck behind my lee press loading 223 too much these days.

Im just a bit afraid of the varget sticks being too long to feed reliably. Maybe something like blc2?

 

Regards

 

Garry

[baldie]

I use 24.5 grains of Varget behind a 77 smk, with a br4 primer Garry. It meters through the dillon no problem. My large kegs of Varget have dried up unfortunatly, so i,m going to switch to vhit 140 if it works, as that is available in bulk now.

[David Hancock]

Gentlemen, thank you for your comments.

 

My point was if only one rifle, but I really don't want to lose the .17HMR as 50 rabbits a night a couple of times a week in a .223 is pricey.

 

I have the permissions, but not the need or experience to shoot out to 600 and have the .223 ticket so the faff of not having to apply for a variation makes life easy.

 

David

[kent]

Gentlemen, thank you for your comments.

 

My point was if only one rifle, but I really don't want to lose the .17HMR as 50 rabbits a night a couple of times a week in a .223 is pricey.

 

I have the permissions, but not the need or experience to shoot out to 600 and have the .223 ticket so the faff of not having to apply for a variation makes life easy.

 

David

 

Personally if you want one gun to do Rabbits in that amount and larger stuff out further then i should look at Two loads in a .223 one reduced for the bunnies, one std for fox. Or reduce the range you think you might fox at to under 200 and use one load for all in a .22 Hornet which is a better gun than the HMR anyway you will not miss it. Both these options realy mean handloads, i am not sure i would want to popping off 50+ factory an evening on cost alone. 1 4 1 variations are easy peasy and free

 

I have to agree with Dave on the subject of range a little, i cannot generally positively identify a fox at a great range at night nor can i descern the safety 100% as such i doubt i have ever shot a fox "at night" beyond 200 and 99% are perhaps 120 or less maybee the average is 80yds. I think there is much theory in long range "point and squirt foxing" and maybee less practice of it.

 

By the way the hornet burns half the powder of a .223 and is very easy to moderate beyond what you might get with your HMR even. I dont body shoot bunnies generally but you can head shoot them at any range and retain the carcass for the table, i intentionally shot a few very short range squatters to test this theory

[6.5shooter]

I use 24.5 grains of Varget behind a 77 smk, with a br4 primer Garry. It meters through the dillon no problem. My large kegs of Varget have dried up unfortunatly, so i,m going to switch to vhit 140 if it works, as that is available in bulk now.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that Dave,

Im using 25 gr varget behind a 75 hpbt hornady with a rem 7.5 br primer in my bolt action. I will try and duplicate this load through the dillon to see if it will work as its ever so slightly compressed.

 

Regards

 

Garry

[skany]

nothing wrong with 223

 

ive had one & a couple of mates both run fast twist tikas!

 

perosnaly tho id rather have a 6br for the same sort of powder burned!

 

cheers Andy

[6.5shooter]

Dave,

 

I agree with your sentiments so often we could be twins.

 

I have heard people claim to have shot foxes under a lightforce at 450yds on more than one occasion yet with my Lightforce 170 I cannot even make the shape of a fox

out at 350yds let alone 450yds.

 

As for the .223calibre, I have a .223ai and it is a great little round for UK varmint hunting. I can launch 55grain Bk's at 3600fps and 80 grain VLD's at 3100fps with it, the accuracy is top draw. I am yet to test it at extended ranges on live targets as I am not totally happy with the loads I

have developed, but I am sure 600yds on rabbits on a windless day is well achievable.

 

When I have a load I am happy with I will post more info.

 

.223 is a very good round.

 

 

 

 

Ronny, are you sure of the velocities of youre loads? Thats hellish fast for that little case.

My swift only pushes a 60 grainer at 3600 fps, i can go a bit faster but its most accurate here.

 

 

Regards

 

Garry

[6.5shooter]

Thats pretty impressive!

My swift burns 44 grains of n160 to achieve 3600. I have pushed it up to 46 grains and its still as accurate but im using norma brass and it stretches like my grannies knickers, so I figured I aint going to gain much more than only a headache trimming all the time so I settled for the lower load.

My standard 223 with a 60 grain bullet using varget and 20 inch barrel achieves 3000 fps and 2800 fps with a 75. The extra 6 inches certainly would help but the manouverability from the jeep outweights those inches.

Looking forwards to youre vids.

 

Garry

[Wsm]

Dave,

 

I agree with your sentiments so often we could be twins.

 

 

 

You've already got a twin called Robbosam remember Ronny.Dave would make it triplets

 

Getting back to topic the 223 is a perfect cal for the ranges describe.Accurate,easily moderated and plenty of choice of guns and ammo combinations

 

Having said all that my old 223 is now a Tac and I wouldn't change it back.For the sake of a variation if you really want a Tac go for it or you'll always be thinking of what if

 

Edit :You wouldn't go far wrong with this

 

http://ukvarminting.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12489

[foxshot]

I am more than happy with my 223 ackley,it gives me good accuracy now i have found a good load to shoot foxs 100- 200 on the lamp providing i have a clear safe shot and i have managed to shoot rabbits over 300 during daylight but aint to botherd about shooting over 300 in daylight conditions,will leave that to my future weapon fingers crossed

[Guest richness]

Bottom line is it does the job and you need to be a fine marksman to outshoot it (and at night, forget about it) BUT there are way more ballistically efficient cartridges out there now mate, no two ways about it, with a fast 40gr 20cal being just one

[Guest richness]

Gentlemen, thank you for your comments.

 

My point was if only one rifle, but I really don't want to lose the .17HMR as 50 rabbits a night a couple of times a week in a .223 is pricey.

 

I have the permissions, but not the need or experience to shoot out to 600 and have the .223 ticket so the faff of not having to apply for a variation makes life easy.

 

David

 

ONE rifle and do it all would be a 17Fireball for me, if pushed.

30p to load. Drops fox at 300y like the hand of god. Ballistically better than 223

Not wanting to start a can of worms here but that's my experience. There are many other with more but believe me it is worth considering.

However, if you have a 223 slot and don't want to change it, well there's your answer and it'll do fine.

[achosenman]

FWIW another vote for the 223.

 

Dead is dead. A bullet doing 3800fps or one doing 3000fps makes no never mind to Charlie…it’s all a bad day.

 

I’ve been down the silly fast wonder magnum route. Little bullets and lots of powder mean but one thing…a scrap barrel sooner rather than later. The first thing you do when you get your first Hawkeye is scope your pride and joy… then you weep. That’s when you see what those bragging rights have really cost.

 

If you want a twenty you can have mine. The new 223 is at the paint shop and I can’t wait to get back to a calibre that doesn’t spank the bank balance every time I squeeze the trigger.

 

At night 260yds is the max you see and identify a fox as safe to shoot using a big old Light Force Blitz. At that range all the centre fire 22’s are point and shoot. The 20’s and 17’s are the same. You all end up with something dead after the bang. The only difference is how much barrel you sent downrange with the bullet.

 

ATB

[22/250 foxer]

ONE rifle and do it all would be a 17Fireball for me, if pushed.

30p to load. Drops fox at 300y like the hand of god. Ballistically better than 223

Not wanting to start a can of worms here but that's my experience. There are many other with more but believe me it is worth considering.

However, if you have a 223 slot and don't want to change it, well there's your answer and it'll do fine.

 

i agree the fireball is a great little round for rabbit and fox. low powder charge, fast flat, and the little rounds never seam to exit the body often. which means it dumps all the ftlb inside the fox. only downside is I wish I would have got one built sooner

[BOB LEE SWAGGER]

FWIW another vote for the 223.

 

Dead is dead. A bullet doing 3800fps or one doing 3000fps makes no never mind to Charlie…it’s all a bad day.

 

I’ve been down the silly fast wonder magnum route. Little bullets and lots of powder mean but one thing…a scrap barrel sooner rather than later. The first thing you do when you get your first Hawkeye is scope your pride and joy… then you weep. That’s when you see what those bragging rights have really cost.

 

If you want a twenty you can have mine. The new 223 is at the paint shop and I can’t wait to get back to a calibre that doesn’t spank the bank balance every time I squeeze the trigger.

 

At night 260yds is the max you see and identify a fox as safe to shoot using a big old Light Force Blitz. At that range all the centre fire 22’s are point and shoot. The 20’s and 17’s are the same. You all end up with something dead after the bang. The only difference is how much barrel you sent downrange with the bullet.

 

ATB

well said chosenman excellent post 223 is a great caliber

[sako]

Nothing wrong with .223

 

 

Just picked up a second hand sako in .223 sat,got a box of hornady varmint express 40g.

Took it to the range after zeroing,1/2" 4 shot group

Accurate without any reloading.