whats your thoughts on this

[1forthepot]

Hi all,

 

I am after a moderator but something light it is for a 7mm cal rifle with a 22 inch no 3 profile fluted.

 

What i would like to know is how effective would be a moderator be if it was around the same size of say a sak mod or simlar but built stronger for full bore.Would it be more like a muzzel brake effect rather than a moderator or can you visage it as it may slightly tame the blast.

 

I ask the above as i do alot of walking when i stalk not to keen been in high seats and i really am getting sick of the moderator been unbalanced with the rifle.

 

If anyone can advise please do.

 

regards

chris

[Wsm]

Sounds like the ATec CMM will fill your needs

 

http://www.jacksonrifles.com/

[1forthepot]

Sounds like the ATec CMM will fill your needs

 

http://www.jacksonrifles.com/

Hi WSM,

 

Have you tried these mods and if so with what calibers.

 

chris

[20Tac]

What's your budget?

 

Try George/QSM.

[1forthepot]

Yes i have made contact with george and they are not what i am after, as for budget i have not it is the case of weight rather than money.

 

regards

[Wsm]

I've tried the CMM mods on both 6.5x284 & 270wsm which are both large capacity cases.Although I wouldn't say they're the quietest at the muzzle I doubt very much that anything down range would notice any sound difference between most mods to be honest.They are certainly very light and have the option of varying the overall length to suit your circumstances

The Third Eye Spartan mod is worth a look as well.Although its a reflex type the diameter is slim and it balances well

[bluegreen]

Yes i have made contact with george and they are not what i am after, as for budget i have not it is the case of weight rather than money.

regards

 

I suspect that if George's titanium mods aren't light enough for you; you're probably mis-describing what you're after!

 

Do you actually mean you want a tiny mod?

 

If so, there'll be a big drop-off in performance noisewise; there's no free lunch on this.

 

Your choice will be a compromise balancing 'tiny' against 'hearing damage'.

 

If you're happy to accept increased risk; and just want something to take the edge off a bit (and I've thought along these lines too); I think the best compromise you'll come up with is an a-tec cmm-4 used with the 3 centre sections removed.

[ejg223]

Big problem when talking about moderators is that one often

hears about "light" and "Titanium" and "small". The actual weight

in grams is very seldomly displayed.

I have scales and a Roedale delta five baffle aluminium mod on my 308 which weighs

175 grams (this is an early test modell) it works perfect. The production

aluminium 5 baffle moderators weigh around 220grams.

I also have a 5 baffle mod with the first two baffles in stainless

which weighs 275 grams.

Either one of these are great for stalking. One can remove baffles to

save weight even more.

 

A few years ago I built a 3" long stainless 3 baffel mod for stalking,

the objective was not to moderate all the way but to hopefully save my hearing

and reduce recoil. It worked fairly well, but also weighed 260 grams.

Now I prefer full moderation at less weight.

 

The Delta 5 baffle is only 175mm long and 40mm diameter.

Go down to 3 baffles and the mod is only 135mm 5.3"

 

The argument baffle life fades a bit if one compares to the

problems of hearing loss. Aluminium baffles will wear, but

...so do barrels.

edi

[terryh]

Chris,

 

I think I can see where you're coming from, function over form!

 

I took a different approach to my stalking rifle build, rather than look at the suppressor as an 'add on' (which could upset the apple cart) I looked at the whole rifle build.

 

As the original Sako75 was a bit heavy all round I shed weight from the barrel profile and had McMillan do a light fill foam on the Sako75 clone stock they make. The best distributed weight suppressor I could find at the time was the PES model which used the OD of the barrel as the ID of the supressor. This keeps the suppressor diameter down (about 32mm from memory) and gives a very large primary chamber size as you can have the suppressor made as long as you want back from the muzzle.

 

I also walk a lot stalking but have never, to date, taken an off hand shot, always used sticks (mono, bi and tri pod) so this balance thing, for me, has never been a real issue, but in saying that my rifle balances OK, have used it a few times offhand at moving targets at Bisley with no problems and others that have shot it have not commented on the weight being fwd.

 

Brgds Terry

[sporting rifles]

 

 

The argument baffle life fades a bit if one compares to the

problems of hearing loss. Aluminium baffles will wear, but

...so do barrels.

edi

 

barrels do wear BUT they do take quite a few thousand shots and a few years unlike alloy baffles in a mod which can burn out with a couple of hundred shots

[1forthepot]

if a mod did burn out within in a couple of hundred shots i would send it back.

[ejg223]

barrels do wear BUT they do take quite a few thousand shots and a few years unlike alloy baffles in a mod which can burn out with a couple of hundred shots

 

These Aluminum mods are designed for a purpose, that is stalking. Normally one would fire way less rounds

while stalking than if after vermin or target. Baffles can be replaced and only cost 30 - 40 Euro a piece.

Meaning that after a few years of stalking one could replace the first two baffles.

Generally I think the baffle wear is just a marketing issue, the majority of stalkers will not

wear out an aluminium mod. I would love to see data of sound increase due to baffle wear over x ammount of rounds.

Up to now one has seen only pictures on the web of worn old style A-tec baffles without any reliable data

to noise increase nor what caused the wear, posted by a person who is friendly with a compeditors product.

 

The modular design of a Delta has the advantage that a customer could order a aluminium rear end, two or

three first baffles in stainless and the rest in Aluminium. Bit like Lego your'e self a mod.... taylored to the usage.

On the right rifle the all alu under 200gram for my 308. Thr left one is alu with the first two baffles in stainless

on my 243 foxing/stalking rig. I shoot 50% of my deer off-hand, these mods handle great.

 

edi

 

[1forthepot]

what is the difference between the delta and the A-tec.they look the same.

[Finman]

For years I would swear on the usefullness of the T-8 moderator that I have in my 6mmBR and the .204Ruger. Fantastic sound reduction, but forget the ballance of the rifle. No problem for a rifle that you would should from a vehicle or a bipod, bashing vermin all day.

 

When I had my stalking rifles though, I put a Jet-Z on both (22' barrel 6.5x55 and 25' barrel 7x57- if I am not mistaken also represented by Jackson Rifles). Well, what a difference! fantastic sound reduction, and recoil reduction, and little upset on the rifle balance. Took some fantastic off hand shots this May in Africa, two of them witnessed (130 yard monkey and 80yrd headshot warthog), and I am not the world's best shot either. They come at a price, but, given that they will last a long time, they protect my hearing, and the minimal disruption on the rifle's line and balance they get my vote any day.

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[ejg223]

what is the difference between the delta and the A-tec.they look the same.

 

They are similar, I think there are another one or two manufacturers who make

modular or sectioned moderators similar the delta or a-tec.

 

Delta and A-tec baffles are not interchangable. The indside baffle design is different.

I have A-tec steel and the mentioned Deltas. Both work, but I prefer the delta baffle

shape as it is symetrical vs the non symetrical A-tec baffle.

 

This is what the delta looks like inside. Rear end with thread, baffles, end cover plate.

edi

[brown dog]

Both work, but I prefer the delta baffle

shape as it is symetrical vs the non symetrical A-tec baffle.

 

I think it's the asymmetry that's key to the success of the a-tec design - ever looked inside a jet-z? Madly asymmetrical gas flow channels to disrupt and set gases on 'self-canceling' paths to slow gases as much as possible.

[ejg223]

I found no ill effect of the asymetry in the Atec.

Just as on a crown I prefer symetry on anything a bullet flys through,

no other reason.

The baffle shape of the Delta was designed at a uni and I know

several other shapes had been tested. Method behind the madness??

 

edi

[baldie]

The basic design of the original A-tec modular is good, it works very well, and thats mainly due to the interrupted path the gas has to take, because the baffles, dont all let the gas out the same. The symmetry of this design has buggered all that up.The comparison between a crown and a mod, is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, an un-square crown wont shoot, because the bullet is touching the bore, and gas leakage anywhere but all at the same time will have a detrimental effect. When a bullet travels through a mod, or brake, the gas is being acted upon, BEHIND the bullet, so any way it can be interrupted, unevenly, makes the mod quieter. The quietest mods on the market are, the jet-z , the quicksilver, and milspec ones like the brugger and thommet. These all have irregular, tortuous paths for the gas , not symmetrical ones.

 

The reason i changed ALL the baffles , to stainless inside our remake of the original A-Tec, was because the aluminium baffles were wearing out at an alarming rate, and also dropping ali oxide down the bore. The only ali baffled mods i will use now, are the type with the stainless inserts in from Third eye. That does away with the wearing problem.

 

Its no good saying a mod is for stalking only. The customer will want to zero his gun, and maybe load test it. It has to have a reasonable life, otherwise its not fit for purpose. I saw some of the old A-Tec baffles fall apart after 3-400 rounds. We had to break up the last remaining ones for spare parts, until we could replace them with our own stainless baffles. Any ali mod will wear the same on its baffle holes. The wear is not the problem, the holes need to get to the size of a penny piece before a mans hearing would tell the difference, the main problem is the decay, and crumbling due to oxidisation, accelerated by the acidic gas from the gun.This ends up down the bore, every time the mod is fitted to the gun, and slung over a shoulder.

[brown dog]

Dave,

 

Is your a-tec copy the modular type or the 'normal' type?

[baldie]

Its an improved version of the original one BD. The maker discontinued it. I improved ours with several features, such as a grub screwed bush, stainless baffles, a larger spider bore to accomodate bigger barrels, and a keyed end cap complete with tool.

The main fault with the original was the aluminium baffles.

[ejg223]

The basic design of the original A-tec modular is good, it works very well, and thats mainly due to the interrupted path the gas has to take, because the baffles, dont all let the gas out the same. The symmetry of this design has buggered all that up.The comparison between a crown and a mod, is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, an un-square crown wont shoot, because the bullet is touching the bore, and gas leakage anywhere but all at the same time will have a detrimental effect. When a bullet travels through a mod, or brake, the gas is being acted upon, BEHIND the bullet, so any way it can be interrupted, unevenly, makes the mod quieter. The quietest mods on the market are, the jet-z , the quicksilver, and milspec ones like the brugger and thommet. These all have irregular, tortuous paths for the gas , not symmetrical ones.

 

The reason i changed ALL the baffles , to stainless inside our remake of the original A-Tec, was because the aluminium baffles were wearing out at an alarming rate, and also dropping ali oxide down the bore. The only ali baffled mods i will use now, are the type with the stainless inserts in from Third eye. That does away with the wearing problem.

 

Its no good saying a mod is for stalking only. The customer will want to zero his gun, and maybe load test it. It has to have a reasonable life, otherwise its not fit for purpose. I saw some of the old A-Tec baffles fall apart after 3-400 rounds. We had to break up the last remaining ones for spare parts, until we could replace them with our own stainless baffles. Any ali mod will wear the same on its baffle holes. The wear is not the problem, the holes need to get to the size of a penny piece before a mans hearing would tell the difference, the main problem is the decay, and crumbling due to oxidisation, accelerated by the acidic gas from the gun.This ends up down the bore, every time the mod is fitted to the gun, and slung over a shoulder.

 

Dave, a few points,

1) as far as I know A-tec got the CMM design from Roedale, when Pete Lincoln flew up to Norway to discuss a new lighter moderator.

Roedale used to sell A-tecs as we know.

2)I met the engineer who was in charge of the developement at the time and had a longer chat with him at the IWA, no hoax.

3)Only asymetrical baffles work?? Based on what theorie?

If you look at the roedale mod it also has asymetry, 3 times around a circle.

The moderators I had built were symetrical but based on a different theorie and I assure you they also work.

At the moment I have no interest in producing moderators.

 

You are right with the Aluminium crud comming off the old Atecs, I solved that problem by running an oily

brush through the mod after use. I've not seen any oxide comming off my newer Delta's and haven't yet used

the oily brush. Maybe a different aluminium grade helped. Up to now I only have about 80 rounds through the all alu mod.

Some aluminium grades corrode like mad, others don't.

The older Atec design mod I had with the aluminium baffles gave several years of service and is still going strong.

edi

[Admin 0A]

PLEASE READ

 

 

To all who wish to twist this thread into a roedale knicker twist,

 

'Roedale' is not an 'R word' that no one can say (rather like 'Voldemort' on Harry Potter )

 

Anytime someone mentions it, that is not 'open season' and all bets are not off.

 

 

As regards this suppressor thread:

 

If Edi likes his moderators; good on him.

I like my a-tec and my jet-z; but don't like my T8.........

...but I'm not going to start cussing people everytime someone says T8s are great.

 

 

The thread was about suppressors, not 'R'.

 

It took some keyboard-angry bloke to take it that way. He's now suspended.

 

It's back on suppressors now.

 

I'm max-relax on this.

 

But if anyone else wants to jump on this lynch mob mass psychosis just because someone says they like using his suppressors expect a grumpy reception.

 

Roedale: Controversial History - UNDERSTOOD

 

Jumping down the throat of anyone who describes liking or using his products - NOT UNDERSTOOD and NOT ACCEPTABLE

 

 

Really disappointed and bored by this.

 

 

[apologies to anyone now scanning the thread for the juicy bits - they've been chopped]

 

 

 

Now, let's try getting back to discussion of lightweight and small suppressors shall we?!

[1forthepot]

hi all,

 

i have ordered a A-Tec 4 model and we shall see how it goes when the dasherman has me new rifle done.

[deerman]

The basic design of the original A-tec modular is good, it works very well, and thats mainly due to the interrupted path the gas has to take, because the baffles, dont all let the gas out the same. The symmetry of this design has buggered all that up.The comparison between a crown and a mod, is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, an un-square crown wont shoot, because the bullet is touching the bore, and gas leakage anywhere but all at the same time will have a detrimental effect. When a bullet travels through a mod, or brake, the gas is being acted upon, BEHIND the bullet, so any way it can be interrupted, unevenly, makes the mod quieter. The quietest mods on the market are, the jet-z , the quicksilver, and milspec ones like the brugger and thommet. These all have irregular, tortuous paths for the gas , not symmetrical ones.

 

The reason i changed ALL the baffles , to stainless inside our remake of the original A-Tec, was because the aluminium baffles were wearing out at an alarming rate, and also dropping ali oxide down the bore. The only ali baffled mods i will use now, are the type with the stainless inserts in from Third eye. That does away with the wearing problem.

 

Its no good saying a mod is for stalking only. The customer will want to zero his gun, and maybe load test it. It has to have a reasonable life, otherwise its not fit for purpose. I saw some of the old A-Tec baffles fall apart after 3-400 rounds. We had to break up the last remaining ones for spare parts, until we could replace them with our own stainless baffles. Any ali mod will wear the same on its baffle holes. The wear is not the problem, the holes need to get to the size of a penny piece before a mans hearing would tell the difference, the main problem is the decay, and crumbling due to oxidisation, accelerated by the acidic gas from the gun.This ends up down the bore, every time the mod is fitted to the gun, and slung over a shoulder.

 

Dave,

 

You are bang on the money there as far as symmetry and efficient baffle design are concerned. I don't know where some of people's ideas come from as to what makes a good moderator and what design it should follow. I had two of the first A-Tecs to come to the UK and after zeroing the rifles the aluminium baffles had already started showing signs of gas cutting, even on the ones farthest from the muzzle, so I quickly got rid of them and was spurred to find alternatives that would eliminate the gas cutting, and that's how I got involved in the trade. Based on the fact that aluminium, of any specification, has never really been a good alloy for full bore rifle moderators, those who have bought moderators using aluminium baffles have had to carry out tedious maintenance to their moderators just to keep them from crumbling to pieces. Because of this perception that any moderator requires stripping for cleaning it sometimes is a mission to convince the prospective buyer that a titanium moderator does not require that kind of maintenance. Just my two pence worth to the argument.

 

Best,

 

George

[TC]

so I quickly got rid of them

 

I believe you sold me one of them

 

Since gone as part of another transaction...

 

TC