7x57 Loads

[Finman]

Hi Folks,

 

I am now the happy owner of a Sako L691 in 7x57 (or 7mmMauser, or .275Rigby). It has a PacNor select match 1:8 magnum sporter barrel and a Swarovski 8x56 Habicht and, soon, it will be in a McMillan Sako Hunter stock.

 

and

 

In the mean time I can spend some time developing some loads and here is where I need your help. I have looked for ideas in the usual places (Viht, Hodgdon, Accurate arms manuals) and a few recipes in the interweb, but I have a feeling these are for the military actions that abound across the pond.

 

I intend to use 140gn and 150gn bullets (have the Sierra Prohunter and GMK respectively, as well some 162gn Hornady Interlocks SPBT) and the following powders

- H4831SC

- AA4350

- RL19

- Viht N160

 

I would be most grateful if you could share your loads (if you shoot a 7x57!) and use any of the above components.

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[casts_by_fly]

I think you need to take it back. The bolt is on the wrong side. Looks like a major manufacturing error.

 

Sorry, don't shoot one, but I hope you get a couple good loads up here. A neighbor bought one a few months back and is a bit disapointed in the velocity of the factory stuff. I offered to get him an extra 200 fps with handloads, but he hasn't needed it yet (been busy harvesting).

 

Thanks

Rick

[Finman]

I think you need to take it back. The bolt is on the wrong side. Looks like a major manufacturing error.

 

Sorry, don't shoot one, but I hope you get a couple good loads up here. A neighbor bought one a few months back and is a bit disapointed in the velocity of the factory stuff. I offered to get him an extra 200 fps with handloads, but he hasn't needed it yet (been busy harvesting).

 

Thanks

Rick

 

hi Rick,

 

thanks for the response. Aside from the bolt on the wrong side (if you knew how long it took me to find it...) I am aware of the gripes about the speed factor. Mention to your friend that nothing dies when fps hits it, only when the bullet finds its target. Someone must have missed to inform 'Karamojo' Bell about this and I think that the two black wildebeest that I downed with Remington factory ammo (2400fps- 140gn corelokt) must have also not gotten the news

 

 

(the rifle in the picture is a pre-64 Winchester, which was the inspiration for me to get this calibre)

 

that aside, you can load it at speeds very close to the 7mmRemMag, but that is not why I got it for. Look forward to some ideas from the folks in the forum. I, in the meantime, shall post my results with what info I have gleaned from the net.

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[swampy]

7mm is truly excellant for hunting. I use 7mm08 and it is fantastic. I am a quickload user and if required i can do you some data for those componants.

 

Swampy

[Laurie]

Finman,

 

I can't help with loads as my 7X57 efforts from years back were all mild efforts for a Boer Model 1895 long rifle for Historic Arms competition and I just used varying amounts of Viht N160 for everything from 139s to 175s. They all shot well - in fact amazingly well for what was then a 90 year old rifle with simple iron sights. (Young man's eyes needed though with a tiny, shallow rear V notch and partridge foresight.)

 

Just thought I'd add tuppence worth on the 7X57 ballistics.

 

The original miltary loading was a long 173gn round-nose FMJ at only 2,295 fps and it worked (against us!) brilliantly in Seff Effrika. Early sporting loads were the same basically but now RNSP with a huge amount of exposed lead tip. They worked, and still do - lots of penetration thanks to a high sectional density and reliable expansion. The low MVs simply don't matter except to numbers freaks. People shot everything with them in Europe and Africa, although you have to note that Karamojo Bell placed shots into really small areas in elephant heads where he'd identified weak spots and he invariably used FMJ ammo (armour piercing even when he could get it) with his 7X57 and .30-06 rifles. He wasn't alone then - more than a few professionals culled elephants with the little 6.5X54 Mannlicher and 160gn FMJ RNs in the same way. The light report of these relatively small calibres saw professional hunters get right amongst the then huge herds and shoot more of the buggers before they panicked and ran off - these guys must have had nerves of steel!

 

One great thing about 7X57 and its low velocities was that bullets weren't overstressed, and this has a lot to do with its enduring reputation. Not only were pre-WW2 bullets simple cup and core designs, but they wouldn't stand up to abuse through very high terminal velocities or hitting large bones. The long heavy bullet and modest velocities helped keep the 173/175gn 7mm bullets in one piece, or anyway fail less often than competitors with higher paper performance. That's not the advantage it once was now with super bonded, all-copper, twin-core wunderbullets (well, on paper anyway). What it does mean is you certainly don't need superdooper expensive bullets like your mate with a 7WSM or 7mm Rem Mag just to keep them in one piece in the animal - even at modern 7X57 handload MVs which are lot higher than the originals.

 

I think it's a great cartridge - always have. It's a shame that it seems to have been forgotten (again) in all the excitement about short magnums. I suspect it'll still be here in another 117 years (originally introduced in 1892) assuming shooting is still allowed, or there's anything left to shoot by then. It has lost out though in the USA to 7mm-08 Rem seen as a 'modern seven', but I still prefer the longer cartridge being an old-fashioned sort of guy (stick-in-the-mud, the other half says!)

 

I've attached three pics - 1960s Kynoch copies of the original load. They still shot really well in a modern German rifle. A range of sevens from left 7mm-08, 7X57 (Kynoch 173gn RNSP), 7X57 (old Norma 150gn PSP), 7X64 Brennecke, 7mm Rem Mag. Finally, a similar concept cartridge from the great days of British rifles and abundant African plains game. Anybody make a guess? (Sorry. No prizes!) I'll give a couple of clues. These examples were found in a batch of gash surplus military .30-06, and that's what you'd think it was at first sight, but it's not thirty calibre. It was a British factory, or at least proprietary cartridge, not a wildcat, and dates from before World War One.)

 

Oops - not enough room for the mystery cartridge in this post - I'll upload it in a separate post.

 

 

Laurie

[Laurie]

Finman (and anybody else interested)

 

Here's the 'mystery' pre-WW1 British cartridge for African plains game.

 

Laurie

[Ronin]

Laurie

 

 

no pic of the mystery cartridge!

 

 

 

I have a pal who ive just re-barrelled a Mauser 98 for in this calibre (7x57) I will ask what his loads are.

 

Lovely Sako by the way, I personally would make the barrel darker and keep it in the wooden stock, looks well

[Laurie]

Andy,

 

 

It won't let me do it - I've use today's space allocation I think. I'll upload the pic tomorrow - it's an interesting cartridge.

 

Laurie

 

[Ronin]

Laurie

 

 

no problem, I wasn't aware that we had space allocations, although ive had to space picture heavy posts in the past between two or three pages.

 

 

Would be interested to see some other unusual oddities you have.

[Finman]

Good evening chaps,

 

thank you for your responses. I share Laurie's sadness for the demise of such classic cartridges in favour of the modern speed demons. I am holding high hopes for this rifle, there is a McMillan Sako Hunter stock ordered for it and it will be pillarbedded to that stock. in the mean time I am experimenting with some bullets to see what it can do. I aim to use it mainly with 140gn and 150gn bullets, at around 2600-2700. I don't want it to become too lively or have to order cases every so often. I am sure that, for the sake of 100fps, animals won't know the difference!

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[ejg223]

Finman, If you like, pass on your e-mail via PM and

I'll mail the 7x57 data from a german book I have.

edi

[Chris-NZ]

Finman,

 

...mystery cartridge in this post - I'll upload it in a separate post.

 

 

Laurie

 

 

.276 Enfield?

.280 British?

 

 

Chris-NZ

[Laurie]

Chris,

 

 

.276 Enfield?

.280 British?

 

No - think sporting, African plains game. Still around (mentioned by Criag Boddington in "African Rifles & Cartridges") but virtually dead and buried.

 

I'll post an image tomorrow morning of two cartridges plus RN FMJ and RNSP bullets, and you can all have a guess.

 

Laurie

[Zaitsev]

Hmm perhaps the .280 Ross then?

[Ronin]

275 Rigby?

[Zaitsev]

.275 rigby is to all intents and purposes 7x57 mauser. It just has a British 'accent'!

 

What is different is the price of the brass! Think the last lot I saw was close to 400 quid for a 100 cases.

[Chris-NZ]

Not one of these on the right of the 7-08?

 

 

 

Chris-NZ

[Laurie]

Gentlemen,

 

Here we are.

 

The clue is that the cartridges were found amongst a mixed lot of .30-06, and at first glance you wouldn't see a great difference.

 

The RNSP bullet on the left is not from the cartridges - it is a 220gn 0.308" used for decades in classic American .30-06 heavy deer / bear / elk loads.

 

The RNFMJ on the right is from the 'mystery cartridge' which was loaded in two versions - soft-point and 'solid' (actually FMJ), both round-nose.

 

Laurie

[Chris-NZ]

Umm, .318 Westley Richards?

 

Chris-NZ

[Laurie]

Umm, .318 Westley Richards?

 

Chris-NZ

 

 

Chris - got it in one!

 

Otherwise known as the .318 Nitro Express, or .318 Rimless Nitro Express.

 

'My' examples have 250gn bullets, for which COTW gives a factory MV of 2,400 fps. They were also loaded with 180s which seems rather pointless for this sort of cartridge. Despite the name, bullets were 0.330", a diameter never used by anybody else so far as I know (Early American 33s use 0.333", modern ones 0.338" bullets.)

 

 

When you see it alongside a .30-06 it's obvious the designer took that case and apparently just necked it up - a European version of the .35 Whelen, but predating it by 12 years.

 

The reason I introduced it is that I think of it as being a big brother to the 7X57 - same concept, long heavy bullet at a modest velocity that has fantastic penetration on big soft-skin animals. Craig Boddington confirms that in his book on African rifles, saying it was one of the best one-shot kill cartridges he's used on big beasts like zebra.

 

A friend who has regular shooting trips to Africa says the old-timers speak of it with great affection, and you still find the odd .318 in use.

 

According to Barnes, the only way to keep one shooting now is to get .333" bullets - themselves a limited production, special order job and swage them down. That is, unless somebody like Woodleigh makes them again - must look at the Kynamco website to see if they list the cartridge.

 

Laurie

[Chris-NZ]

Lucky guess on my part Laurie.

 

The one I pictured beside my 7-08 has an interesting history.

 

Firstly, you need to hear a little history about moose in NZ. Moose were released in Fiordland in the ?1920s and bred to a certain degree but the country wasn't ideal being far too steep and probably lacking flat swampland. They have become extinct here despite recent claims to the contrary.

 

Of the three (recorded) guys that shot moose in this country, one was from my home town of Nelson (Max Curtis) and I well remember him at Deerstalkers shoots when I was a teenager. The other (Percy Lyes) was one of my patients and he only died recently. Both of these guys were professional cullers who literally killed tens of thousands of reds between them. The other guy that got two was Eddie Herrick who donated the land for the highschool my boys went to in Hastings. He was a very keen private hunter with means and did many trips down to Fiordland.

 

To give you an idea of how challenging this country is, check this article out:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/wapiti-hunting.php

 

Anyway, getting back to my .318W-R cartridge, it's from the remaining packet of Kynoch ammo from Eddie Herrick. I was kindly given it by another patient who's the custodian of Herrick's guns. I certainly won't be parting with it easily.

 

Chris-NZ

[Chris-NZ]

PS

 

My gunsmith Tony (of HHE fame) inherited a Westley-Richards from his father in this calibre and converted it to .308 Norma Mag in the 70s. He regrets it to this day..

 

Chris-NZ

[Chris-NZ]

PPS

 

Remembered I had a scanned pic of two wapiti shot with this rifle in 1926. Mick on the right got both but the one he is posing with held records for quite a while. Mick was well over 6 foot tall so you can see how huge it is.

 

 

 

Chris-NZ

[Finman]

Good evening chaps,

 

interesting info! I have been reading a few stuff by John Burger, Peter Kapstick and W. Bell, and they all speak of these calibres with which they seemed to be able to drop animals at distances up to 200-300 yards and, I presume, with open sights. Were it not for their reputation, I would find it very hard to believe them...

 

As I promised, this is the first range report of the new rifle. Having little guidance on what loads to make, I had thrown a load of 44gn H4831SC (which I could not make work in my 6.5x55, and was in my loading cabinet looking forlorn ), with a 162gn Hornady interlock, Federal 210 primers in a Norma case, seated 10thou of the lands.

 

I had shot 5 shots to get the scope on paper, and I was shooting one-cleaning, shooting one-cleaning cycles for these 5 shots. The barrel showed no copper and is free from carbon with two patches KG1, a brushing and two KG12 soaked patches. When we looked down it (prior to it getting chambered) with the Hawkeye, it was mirror smooth, so it lives up to expectation.

 

At this second occasion, I wanted to continue breaking in the barrel (going for shoot 2-clean cycles this time), but also assess some loads. Imagine my surprise when the first three rounds did this:

 

 

the group measures half inch c/c

 

I then tried some other loads (one with 50.5gnAA4350 that I had found somewhere, and a two others with similar-close to the limit- loads for the 139gn Interlock and the 140gn Sierra ProHunter) and what they showed me was that the rifle

 

a) kicks like a mule at high pressures

b ) groups like a shotgun

 

so I think I shall keep to the low speeds/pressures and try some more loads. My shoulder had enough after 14 shots (I shot my 6.5x55 also whilst the 7x57 was cooling and steeped in solvents, I am not that big a wimp!) and I called it quits. I shall try the 140s and 150s at around 2600fps and see what happens. Shall let you know (if you are interested that is...)

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[Andrew]

Interesting.

 

By the by... If you need (say) .333" bullets, order a set of bullet sizing dies from Lee Precision in the U.S. and reduce the diameter of a .338 bullet in .002" increments, shooting for .001" under the desired diameter. (.336, .334,.332) They work well and cost $25 US each and a 6 week wait from Lee. It's how many US shooters make .366 - .368" bullets for the 9.3mm rifles from common and less costly .375 bullets.

 

I too love to see old rifles put back afield agree with the "heavy and slow" assessment. One of the problems encountered with the 7mm Remington Magnum in it's early days was the company's use of the lighter "Corlokt" bullet designed for the 7x57 in factory 7mm Rem Mag. So many elk were wounded using this load that at least two of the top elk management reserves in New Mexico forbade the cartridges use. I have used the 7x57 for elk and found it more than adequate with proper bullets engineered for the 7x57 velocities. Great round. ~Andrew