RFD Question

[OSOK]

Can anyone tell me what constitutes being a servant of please .....

I'm being told that if you provide a service to an RFD and recieve payment via an invoice then your not a servant of that RFD ..... However if you are on the payroll of the RFD then you can which makes no sense to me and seems like a play on words  ?

OSOK

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, OSOK said:

Can anyone tell me what constitutes being a servant of please .....

I'm being told that if you provide a service to an RFD and recieve payment via an invoice then your not a servant of that RFD ..... However if you are on the payroll of the RFD then you can which makes no sense to me and seems like a play on words  ?

OSOK

Seems reasonable advice to me, after all persons normally doing invoiced work wouldn't necessarily be a 'servant' ie painter & decorator etc.  Just because the invoiced work may involve firearms doesn't change that does it?  Also invoiced work implies only a contract by contract relationship between parties.

Someone on the payroll is clearly a 'servant' with continuous employment responsibilities and duties and under direct control of the employer.

[Webley]

I believe the RFD FAC is in one person's name. They can name other people who are employees at the RFD business as servants permitting them to be covered by the RFD FAC. That list is given to the police and recorded against the FAC. This means you could be sent with or collect restricted items for the RFD. You can be an employee of the RFD and not a servant of the RFD as well. For example working in the shop selling clothing etc or the person that keeps the books.

If a person or company provides a service to an RFD they would not be covered by the RFDs FAC and would need to be covered by their own FAC to be in possession of FAC restricted items. So a company that does cerakoting jobs for an RFD would need their own RFD FAC to take the guns away and do the job. But could do the job without an FAC if the parts are in the presence a servant of the RFD all of the time for example.

That is my understanding anyway.

[OSOK]

33 minutes ago, Webley said:

I believe the RFD FAC is in one person's name. They can name other people who are employees at the RFD business as servants permitting them to be covered by the RFD FAC. That list is given to the police and recorded against the FAC. This means you could be sent with or collect restricted items for the RFD. You can be an employee of the RFD and not a servant of the RFD as well. For example working in the shop selling clothing etc or the person that keeps the books.

If a person or company provides a service to an RFD they would not be covered by the RFDs FAC and would need to be covered by their own FAC to be in possession of FAC restricted items. So a company that does cerakoting jobs for an RFD would need their own RFD FAC to take the guns away and do the job. But could do the job without an FAC if the parts are in the presence a servant of the RFD all of the time for example.

That is my understanding anyway.

I understand what your saying and it sounds right put that way ... I guess my frustration is down to one area allowing it without any fuss only to find my area stating the paid part stops me being a servant .. They seem happy enough with my circumstances to grant me an RFD for the same purposes but it still seems a play on words but with an additional application fee ... Or am i being a Cynic

[Popsbengo]

20 minutes ago, OSOK said:

I understand what your saying and it sounds right put that way ... I guess my frustration is down to one area allowing it without any fuss only to find my area stating the paid part stops me being a servant .. They seem happy enough with my circumstances to grant me an RFD for the same purposes but it still seems a play on words but with an additional application fee ... Or am i being a Cynic

Not a cynic,  I think we all agree that the various police jurisdictions should apply the law interpreted to one standard, correctly.  It's very frustrating.  I believe the College Of Policing consultation is their in-house attempt to do that but as always the devils' in the details

[Dellboy]

22 hours ago, OSOK said:

I understand what your saying and it sounds right put that way ... I guess my frustration is down to one area allowing it without any fuss only to find my area stating the paid part stops me being a servant .. They seem happy enough with my circumstances to grant me an RFD for the same purposes but it still seems a play on words but with an additional application fee ... Or am i being a Cynic

But would it be possible to do the same service for other RFD'S if so whose RFD would you be on ?

[OSOK]

1 hour ago, Dellboy said:

But would it be possible to do the same service for other RFD'S if so whose RFD would you be on ?

I guess that would muddy the water even more .... However that's not the reason their giving in my case .

[Mattnall]

 

On 2/28/2023 at 2:04 PM, Webley said:

I believe the RFD FAC is in one person's name. They can name other people who are employees at the RFD business as servants permitting them to be covered by the RFD FAC. That list is given to the police and recorded against the FAC. This means you could be sent with or collect restricted items for the RFD. You can be an employee of the RFD and not a servant of the RFD as well. For example working in the shop selling clothing etc or the person that keeps the books.

If a person or company provides a service to an RFD they would not be covered by the RFDs FAC and would need to be covered by their own FAC to be in possession of FAC restricted items. So a company that does cerakoting jobs for an RFD would need their own RFD FAC to take the guns away and do the job. But could do the job without an FAC if the parts are in the presence a servant of the RFD all of the time for example.

That is my understanding anyway.

I think you have right in most ways.

There's no such thing as the RFD FAC just a Certificate of Registration as a Firearms Dealer.
Dealers can be a company or a person and police usually require anyone acting on behalf of the RFD to be notified to them. I have seen certificates of registration with servants' names listed in the conditions or (as with my own certificate) with a condition requiring the RFD to notify the relevant Chief Officer of Police with the name, address, DoB etc of any servants who are authorised to be in possession of the firearms and ammo... but their names etc are not listed in the conditions box.*

In your scenario, the painters would need to be dealers in their own right and not just FAC holders if they work on controlled components. Someone working in the RFD's shop (or other registered place of business) would be a servant and the relevant police force notified of their servant status. There are only a few special cases where a person can possess (touch) firearms or their components without an FAC, one of those is being an RFD (or the RFD's servant).

 

*Section 8 of the FA1968 refers. AFAIK neither is a legal requirement in itself but as with much of that which is firearms law it is a but fudged. If it is written as a condition on the Certificate of Registration (as in the same way with FAC/SGC) then it is an offence to fail to comply with it, so whatever way your certification department phrase it that is how you will need to do it.