Kingsbury Range Cancellation

[Ralpharama]

Last Sunday I left my bed at a time when only burglars and policeman are supposed to be awake, to collect my friend in Bristol and travel 120 miles through some very unpleasant driving conditions to Kingsbury range. After signing in and having SSC and FAC scrutinised, we assembled the 'flat' pack trolley to take our rifles to the 300 yard firing point and was all ready to go when we were told that because of some standing water on the range it was to be cancelled. Being the last shoot before Christmas there was a spectacular turn out, spread across three clubs, I believe.  I talked to a lady shooter, who is from my club and lives quite close to the range and she said that there had recently been quite a few cancellations.

Is this true?

Is there no way someone at Landmarc could have looked at the range the day before and combine that information with the weather forecast to warn those attending, via their clubs by e-mail that the would be a likelihood of a cancellation to prevent the likes of myself driving 240 miles for no purpose what so ever. 8/9 gallons of diesel itself is not cheap ignoring the rest of the cost. I am in no way suggesting that the fault is with the clubs as they are run by unpaid volunteers and can only pass on data received from Landmarc who are employed by the taxpayer to manage the military training infrastructure. Their website tells us how they are efficient and provide second to none service. Last Sunday didn't seem to be very efficiently handled.

Thoughts?

Ralph

[SMLE]

Leaning on an open door there Ralph!

I was there too and live locally so was only mildly irritated but can sympathise with your annoyance. Range standing orders demand no shooting if standing water and, being generous, I would guess that the warden made a final check that morning, although it would have been fairly obvious the night before I would have thought.

Cancellation seems to be the default position just lately though I must admit, most it would seem through last minute attendance by the military on the B range.

[Brillo]

A couple of years ago we (our club) all too often found ourselves in a self cancellation situation. I would drive 55 miles to the range only to find that a group of cadets were going to shoot 100 yards on B range all day. This leaves a stark choice as to shoot or not.

Kingsbury rules state that no one can shoot at one distance while another is being used, unlike Bisley where the current ruling is you can have the three different distances being use with eight targets separating them.

Landmarc are poor at giving adverse notice. I don’t think they care.

[VarmLR]

Sadly, this is becoming all too common place with many clubs who are tied to using MOD ranges which is why I've not bothered to renew one of my memberships this year....far too many instances of last minute cancellations which just seems unprofessional, incompetent or deliberate on the part of Landmarc and with the attitude of some military range officers that clearly they'd rather civvies weren't there at all.  It cost a lot of us a lot of money and wasted time last year and frankly, it wasn't worth the wasted time, money or effort to bother continuing with MOD ranges this coming year for me personally.  For those that will continue, I do hope that the situation improves for you this coming year over the shambles that it has been.

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, VarmLR said:

Sadly, this is becoming all too common place with many clubs who are tied to using MOD ranges which is why I've not bothered to renew one of my memberships this year....far too many instances of last minute cancellations which just seems unprofessional, incompetent or deliberate on the part of Landmarc and with the attitude of some military range officers that clearly they'd rather civvies weren't there at all.  It cost a lot of us a lot of money and wasted time last year and frankly, it wasn't worth the wasted time, money or effort to bother continuing with MOD ranges this coming year for me personally.  For those that will continue, I do hope that the situation improves for you this coming year over the shambles that it has been.

Couldn't agree more.  I've let my membership of ODRC go as I have a 300/500yd alternative and I shoot long range at Eskdalemuir.  I enjoyed Kingsbury but the increased buggeration isn't worth the effort and I don't go to other ODRC booked ranges.

I used to book military ranges for a club, dealt with Swynnerton  - with the exception of the admin (Deb & Marg) the whole shower seem dedicated to being a pain in the butt

[Brillo]

2 hours ago, Popsbengo said:

Couldn't agree more.  I've let my membership of ODRC go as I have a 300/500yd alternative and I shoot long range at Eskdalemuir.  I enjoyed Kingsbury but the increased buggeration isn't worth the effort and I don't go to other ODRC booked ranges.

I used to book military ranges for a club, dealt with Swynnerton  - with the exception of the admin (Deb & Marg) the whole shower seem dedicated to being a pain in the butt

The cost of Kingsbury isn’t cheap. In fact my club is considering booking Bisley instead. This is a shame because I like Kingsbury. But it could be the thin end if the wedge and Landmarc will lose a considerable amount of revenue .

[Popsbengo]

6 minutes ago, Brillo said:

The cost of Kingsbury isn’t cheap. In fact my club is considering booking Bisley instead. This is a shame because I like Kingsbury. But it could be the thin end if the wedge and Landmarc will lose a considerable amount of revenue .

It's not Landmarc's revenue - it's Defence Infrastructure Organisation (DIO), a Governmental agency.

 

[Ralpharama]

I think it is about time the NRA called Landmarc to account. These people are supposed to be employed by the tax payers to manage the publicly owned infrastructure. I do not feel that they are fulfilling their remit.

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, Ralpharama said:

I think it is about time the NRA called Landmarc to account. These people are supposed to be employed by the tax payers to manage the publicly owned infrastructure. I do not feel that they are fulfilling their remit.

What has it to do with NRA?  It's the MOD that ultimately controls access via DIO.  Landmarc are just a facilities contractor - they do as they're told to.

 

[Brillo]

23 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

What has it to do with NRA?  It's the MOD that ultimately controls access via DIO.  Landmarc are just a facilities contractor - they do as they're told to.

 

 

1 hour ago, Popsbengo said:

It's not Landmarc's revenue - it's Defence Infrastructure Organisation (DIO), a Governmental agency.

 

I know that Pops, but it’s still loss of revenue and it’s Landmarc controlling it.

[Popsbengo]

28 minutes ago, Brillo said:

 

I know that Pops, but it’s still loss of revenue and it’s Landmarc controlling it.

No, it isn't.  The JSP907's (booking forms) are put to the DIO Training Manager (Maj. Jim Salisbury at Swynnerton) and he makes the decision regarding who gets allocated what and where.  Landmarc follow simple contract rules and operate to Range Standing Orders (again, written by DIO).  

Landmarc are the wrong target guys.

[SMLE]

7 hours ago, Popsbengo said:

No, it isn't.  The JSP907's (booking forms) are put to the DIO Training Manager (Maj. Jim Salisbury at Swynnerton) and he makes the decision regarding who gets allocated what and where.  Landmarc follow simple contract rules and operate to Range Standing Orders (again, written by DIO).  

Landmarc are the wrong target guys.

Absolutely Pops. I don’t think Landmarc do themselves any favours but nevertheless, they are operating to their contractual obligations. 

People often focus on the wrong guys when apportioning blame and those at the front of house often take the stick, believe me I know, I work in the world of PFI, a sector which sees its fair share of mud slinging when really, a lot of that mud should be sticking to other stakeholders within the arrangements rather than the appointed contractor quite often stuck in the middle.

A contractor, in this instance, Landmarc, will always only work to their contract, their entire efforts will be focussed on compliance with that and any statutory or mandatory i.e. standing orders, obligations they hold, because quite simply their client (DIO) won’t care how well they do any nice to have additional works, which more than likely they won’t receive income for. They, the DIO,  will always measure their (Landmarc’s) performance and hold them to account based upon the content of their contract and that alone.

Frustrating, but that’s how it works.

The poor old Range Wardens, are only doing what they are told, but I think they do enjoy their grumpy reputation if I’m honest...🙂

[Brillo]

9 hours ago, Popsbengo said:

No, it isn't.  The JSP907's (booking forms) are put to the DIO Training Manager (Maj. Jim Salisbury at Swynnerton) and he makes the decision regarding who gets allocated what and where.  Landmarc follow simple contract rules and operate to Range Standing Orders (again, written by DIO).  

Landmarc are the wrong target guys.

Thanks Pops. I know that. Who’s controlling what is a matter of semantics. My point is the loss of revenue when shoots are cancelled or, going back to my other point, when clubs decide to use other shooing locations. 

Clearly the DIO don’t know how to operate a superb business asset.

[SMLE]

30 minutes ago, Brillo said:

Clearly the DIO don’t know how to operate a superb business asset.

Spot on!

[Popsbengo]

37 minutes ago, Brillo said:

Thanks Pops. I know that. Who’s controlling what is a matter of semantics. My point is the loss of revenue when shoots are cancelled or, going back to my other point, when clubs decide to use other shooing locations. 

Clearly the DIO don’t know how to operate a superb business asset.

I don't agree it's "a matter of semantics" and SMLE puts his finger on the issue nicely.  But I do agree that the whole shower could make better business use of, what is ultimately publicly owned property.

The pipe-dream would be to have civilian club ownership of Kingsbury and then hire out time to MoD as required !  

[Ralpharama]

I do not profess to have any expert knowledge of who's to blame, but who ever is mismanaging tax payers assets should be called to account. 

My suggestion that maybe it should be the NRA, is that they are paid by all the clubs and was under the impression that one of their purposes was to speak on behalf of the clubs that are members of their association. Their voice doesn't seem to be as powerful as their namesakes across the pond, not that I believe a rifle association with that level of power is desirable 🤣

[Popsbengo]

3 hours ago, Ralpharama said:

I do not profess to have any expert knowledge of who's to blame, but who ever is mismanaging tax payers assets should be called to account. 

My suggestion that maybe it should be the NRA, is that they are paid by all the clubs and was under the impression that one of their purposes was to speak on behalf of the clubs that are members of their association. Their voice doesn't seem to be as powerful as their namesakes across the pond, not that I believe a rifle association with that level of power is desirable 🤣

I do sympathise Ralph but I'm not convinced we can get anywhere claiming we own the assets therefore we have some right to access.  The ranges are only there because the MoD require them for training.  Allowing civi clubs to use them is very much a minuscule matter.  I think the NRA does meet and campaign for access but they have no real power.

Just consider the tiny revenue (a very rough guess: about £30k pa for Kingsbury if used by three clubs for 40 weeks in the year).  That's not pure profit as Landmarc need to pay wages and overhead etc.  Peanuts in the grand scheme of things so not really going to grab the attention of the powers that be.

[justin credible]

My personal experience of using a Landmarc range was with Dorset Rifles when they used to use one just North of Winchester.

The experience, month in and month out, always seemed to me to be, “Give us the hugely expensive range fee....and just hurry up and f@ck off” 

Personally I begrudged going there and was immensely happy when the club secretary finally saw the light and decided that Landmarc were just taking the pi&& with the cost and the sheer amount of bullsh&t paperwork required just to even turn up on site.