titanium moderators

[20ppc]

Hi George,

 

Firstly welcome to the site.

 

Your suppresors look interesting, however I think you will find it hard to persuade anyone to part with £500-£600 for a suppressor in the UK. I was a bit surprised that the QMS suppressors only offer 75% flash elimination out of a .223 weapon, my PES Extreme and Brugger&Thommet both completely eliminate any flash signature.

 

As regard POI shift when using any suppressor this has more to do with the effect of placing 500-800gr of metal onto the end of the barrel with the resultant change in recoil and barrel harmonics than with gas turbulance of the baffles. If as you say gas turbulance is a problem then you would not get any sort of group at all!!

 

I agree with you that there is an obsession with stripping and cleaning suppressors, there is absolutley no need to do this on a centrefire rifle. both the PES and B&T are sealed units.

 

Anyway, all the best with your venture.

 

Regards,

 

 

Nick.

[Ronin]

Brugger and Thomet recommend a maximum of 5000 rounds before cleaning the moderators - this is a factory clean not a diy stripdown......

[20ppc]

Brugger and Thomet recommend a maximum of 5000 rounds before cleaning the moderators - this is a factory clean not a diy stripdown......

 

Hi Andy,

 

Depends on the mod and calibre, mine comes with a 10,000 round maximum.

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

[baldie]

I,m sorely tempted to try a wallis and grommet on the new .338 when its done. Anyone tried one?

[deerman]

Hi again everybody,

 

I have just returned from Shot Show in the US and noticed that the debate rages on about the applications of titanium and UK market conditions. I believe that it is for such reasons that we in the UK are light years behind the Americans when it comes to sound moderator (or suppressors, as they like to call them) design and materials. I spent 4 days doing the rounds and meeting people at Shot Show and of all the manufacturers at the show, including Quicksilver, none had a reflex-type can on display. Does that mean that American and other manufacturers have got it all wrong and the European design is best? I don't think so.

 

It was interesting to hang around the Cheytac booth and hear what customers had to say about their experiences using titanium moderators with those weapons. I understand that many people in the forums have a vested interest in trying to undermine everything that seems to rock their boat or which may represent additional competition. I believe that people should be excited that another option will soon be out there. It doesn't mean that they will have to buy or use one, but it is out there should anybody like to have a look at one and then make up their minds.

 

It is very easy to stay within one's comfort zone and trust what we know works for us, but that does not mean that what we have is the only option.

 

The flash hiding capability of the moderators quoted on the website are for automatic weapons, which have much short barrels. You have to bear in mind that these moderators have been developed to be used on automatic weapons and the data that came out of America is based on that. I still get a flash on my .308 using an A-Tec moderator, but that does not mean that the can is to blame. It is a function of load x barrel length, which results in a flash of still burning powder.

 

The "discussion" here got to a point that some forum members are even questioning the semantics of the information on the website, as was the case of ejg223, who wrote:

 

'Just making statements like corrosion resistance only second to platinum will only get you laughs, or

"It has a high modulus of elasticity, which means it can expand somewhat under pressure without fracturing"

which doesn't make sence. (High modulus means stiffer, means less expansion for a given tensile strength)'

 

One doesn't have to be a metallurgist to answer that question, and a quick browse through the net will produce results such as the one seen below taken from www.metalinfo.com:

 

'Modulus of Elasticity

 

| A | B | C | D | E | F | G | H | I | J | K | L | M | N | O | P | Q | R | S | T | U | V | W | X | Y | Z |

Definition: When a material is subjected to an external load it becomes distorted or strained. With metals, provided the loading is not too great, they return to their original dimensions when the load is removed, i.e. they are elastic. Within the limits of elasticity, the ratio of the linear stress to the linear strain is termed the modulus of elasticity or more commonly known as Young's Modulus. '.

 

Hope this answers at least one question. Please feel free to do your own searches and come up with your own results and conclusions.

 

While I was at Shot Show I had the pleasure of meeting Jason and Dave Durham, who are Cheytac's Training Instructor for Military and Law Enforcement, and Master Armourer/Trainer, respectively. These two guys have had more experience of Quicksilver moderators than anybody else, having put thousands of rounds through our cans, as they run long range shooting training course continually at Cheytac's Arco Range in Idaho. Keep an eye on our website to hear what Jason and others had to say about our moderators. And when you see what they have to say, bear in mind that they are talking from the perspective of using the moderators on Cheytac .408 and other rifles, which I believe may just be a little bit more powerful that what we use here in the UK. There will be other testimonials coming out soon, so watch the website for the opinions of those who have been using our moderators for quite some time and are not in the business of speculating.

 

I think that some people here in the UK and Europe will find it very hard to justify to their clients the prices they have been selling their cans made of much cheaper and easier to machine materials.

 

As I stated above, you should take these new cans as an additional option in the market, nothing more, nothing less. There are people who wear Rolex watches, and are those who wear Mickey Mouse watches, or the guy who drives a Ferrari and the other who drives a Ford Cortina, and they are all happy. It is simply down to what you want, can afford, and are happy with. I have had similar experiences when I thought that cheaper would do, only to go back later and buy again. As the saying goes: 'when you buy quality, you only cry once'.

 

Visit our website and see some pictures of our cans at Shot Show (www.qsmsilencers.co.uk). For those who are serious about the discussion and would like to read independent reviews on tests carried out by people who, again, are not in the business of speculating, pm me and I will send you scanned copies of the articles by leading American sound suppressor researcher and writer Al Paulson. It makes interesting reading and may answer some of your more technical questions (http://www.silencerresearch.com/silencer_shoot_2008.htm and http://www.silencerresearch.com/)

 

Keep the comments coming and let's have a proper discussion.

 

Pictures are of Cheytac M200 .408, Cheytac .308 LE rifle, and TDI Kriss .45 sub-machine gun.

 

Deerman

[Ronin]

Nice to see CT are using a Mcree folder for their LE rifle.

 

 

Look forwards to the debate over this.

 

There is no doubt a market for top end moderators, but I don't think it would (at the prices quoted) appeal to the majority of shooters out there (over here)

[ejg223]

Deerman,

I did not ask, I pointed out a mistake in your brochure or at least that your experts

did not fully understand what high modulus means. These are vitals when choosing

materials.

 

High modulus means stiffer, means less expansion for a given tensile strength.

Also means more brittle, or less elonguation till break at a given tensile strength.

 

They should rephrase.

 

edi

[deerman]

Hi Edi,

 

It would help everybody here if you quoted where you are getting your information from. I think it is unlikely that www.metalinfo.com would have got that wrong, as they are one of the best references for the metals industry. We are all willing to learn, but only the true facts.

 

Am out of the country again, but let's keep this going.

 

Although not anticipated at all, we have decided to manufacture an exclusive batch of 50 suppressors for the GSG-5 gun, so if you are interested, please register your interest through the site as there may not be another run of these cans. We have bigger fish to fry after Shot Show.

 

Regards to all,

 

Deerman

 

 

Deerman,

I did not ask, I pointed out a mistake in your brochure or at least that your experts

did not fully understand what high modulus means. These are vitals when choosing

materials.

 

High modulus means stiffer, means less expansion for a given tensile strength.

Also means more brittle, or less elonguation till break at a given tensile strength.

 

They should rephrase.

 

edi

[baldie]

I,d love to know what percentage of americans actually own a moderator, out of the gun owning public...especially as every one i.ve talked to wont pay the $200 tax stamp to own one, and they are illegal to use for hunting in most states anyway.

You will have to forgive the forums general sceptiscm Deerman, we have done this subject to death here, and i doubt you will find a more knowledgable group of moderator users in the UK, as you have on this forum.

With the greatest of respect, some of us here have been selling mods of all types for years, and know what sells here. Titanium offers what ? that the aluminium cans dont ? its not a weight saving. Longer life maybe ?

Muzzle mounted cans just do not sell here. The huge majority sold in the UK are for hunting/stalking. Mods get damaged, banged, and guns knocked over by dogs etc. Muzzle cans get damaged/bent by this, plus they extend the length of a gun too much for stalkers. Very few flo,s will grant a mod for range use NOW, but its slowly changing. This is the difference between us, and the USA, we use ours for hunting, so like reflex cans, the yanks use theirs on ranges mainly, so it doesn,t matter what configuration they have. Are the yanks paying $750 for these mods ?

[menial 1]

£750 for one can? You could buy three perfectly serviceable cans of your choice in the UK, and if they go tits up, the suppliers are at hand to deal with the problem, as opposed to the possible rigmarole involved in returning a defective can to the US.

I honestly can't see much of a queue forming to buy these cans, we have a ballpark figure between £200-£300 in the UK which we have come to accept as the norm.

My oldest Reflex is 6yrs+ with over 2500 rounds shot in the field on a .243 and refuses to die, but continues to get quiter as the crud/WD40 mix increases.

So if I bought 3, I'd have 18yrs of moderation and £150 to spend, makes you think a little differently when you start to look at things over the long term.

There would have to be massive increases in sound reduction and weight saving before I could ever condone spending nearly 4 times as much on one can as it costs to buy one of the 4 cans I'm already satisfied with [3 reflex, 1 Jet-Z CQB], and I'm from nowhere near Yorkshire.

Pete.

[Alycidon]

I think its a case of you pays your money you takes your choice. Personally I want it as short as possable please.

 

I think untill we see one in the flesh and compare it to whats in the market now with a test along the lines of the one done in a recent mag involving Northern Chris we cannot constructivly go any further. I would also like to see a test of tightness when the unit is hot. From the previous test I seem to recall that CQB is the boy to beat.

 

A

[menial 1]

When my T8's die I'll replace them with CQB's as I'm impressed with the one I have, but until then I'm not going to rush out and buy three more to fix what isn't broke.

Pete.

[Guest Tiff]

I welcome any new high end mods to the market. I spent nearly half a grand on my muzzle mounted B&T and am very happy I did so. It is by far the most robust unit I've come across and have yet to find a mod that makes 100+ grains of powder sound quieter! While I would not won't it on a woodland stalking rifle, on something that doesn't get used much for shots under 250 yards, it works just fine . But here I think lies the problem (as highlighted in previous posts) nearly all UK shooters do not look at starting at that distance - more like finishing there Hence why forward cans are more popular in the US, some have the space and the gear to reach far out there. Good luck with your project and if it beats the B&T, I'll have one please.

[brown dog]

I think people are over-complicating their analysis of the US tendency away from reflex style moderators.

The US civvy gun market is much like the mil & police mkt in that it is dominated by the M16 and its cousins ie weapons with forward gas parts, foresights, flashiders and bayonet lugs. That's the reason. Not physics or one being better than the other.

Horses not zebras.