titanium moderators

[col48]

Well it seems as there is yet another moderator to get our teeth in to.only this time its titanium,very light weight, any way i have not had the pleasure of looking or using one of them so take a butchers yourself and lets see what your initial thoughts are about this new mod.

http://www.qsmsilencers.co.uk/

ATB

Colin

[Alycidon]

Ops ! - better look more closely next time.

 

 

Looks a nice light unit, warrented for life but I suppose that is only as good as the company behind it.

A

[moses]

You can see all the spec listed but, having read through that I then saw the price and thought I will stick with my PES, over $1000 for a mod

[Redfox]

There is also the issue of work and self hardening, titanium has both these properties and can shatter unpredictably. When heat treated for working/machining it has a very short period of time before it returns to the hard state and requires further heat treatment. So I would expect it to be a titanium alloy, to offset this and the fact that pure titanium can catch fire similar to magnesium.

It is expensive to produce and work so high prices are normal. It is still 60% heavier than aluminium alloy so weight savings over the various ally ones is unlikely.

Redfox

[col48]

There is also the issue of work and self hardening, titanium has both these properties and can shatter unpredictably. When heat treated for working/machining it has a very short period of time before it returns to the hard state and requires further heat treatment. So I would expect it to be a titanium alloy, to offset this and the fact that pure titanium can catch fire similar to magnesium.

It is expensive to produce and work so high prices are normal. It is still 60% heavier than aluminium alloy so weight savings over the various ally ones is unlikely.

Redfox

 

 

this is taken from there web site. TITANIUM FACTS

 

Titanium is one of the most common elements found in the earth's crust, however it is also one of the hardest to produce in metallic form and requires extensive processing. It has several unique properties which make it an ideal candidate for use in sound suppressors. It is twice as strong as steel. It has a melting point that is 400 to 700 degrees higher than any grade of steel, including inconel. The melting point of titanium is 2700 degrees. The melting point of lead is 600 degrees. If your suppressor gets over 600 degrees, you're shooting molten lead, not bullets. On a side note, the titanium cools faster than steel (noted by the recent Army Evaluation Task Force evaluation of our popular .223 suppressor).It is more corrosion resistant than any other metal except platinum. It also has a lower coefficient of expansion than steel, which makes the mount tighten as the barrel and suppressor heat up. It has a high modulus of elasticity, which means it can expand somewhat under pressure without fracturing. The grade of titanium alloy that we currently use actually has twice the tensile strength of pure titanium.Although titanium alloy is extremely difficult to machine and much more costly when compared to steel, we feel that the extra effort and expense is well worth it.Using titanium alloy with its superior strength, precision CNC machining, and modern high temperature ceramic adhesive allows us to produce a uniform quality product free from the vagaries of welded seams, which can distort the alignment of suppressor components.

 

 

ATB

Colin

[ejg223]

Col,

Red has his facts fairly right on titanium.

Titanium can be awkward and is not reliable. At school we

used titanium metall as the bad example in reliability tests when it comes

to load and unload of strain. Some samples would last 100 thousands cycles others failed

after a few cycles

2700 deg is in Farhrenheit. I saw 1677 deg celcius meltpoint somewhere. Not that much over steel.

 

Titanium burns well, or is at least very active at elevated temperatures, that is why

it is used as the active ingredient in the Degussa ceramic brazing method. Metal-ceramic bonding.

 

If one combines density, reliability and strength then titanium is not the winner.

 

 

edi

[JC275]

Just to go off on a slight tangent, basically a moderator is a piece of pressed or welded metal with a female theaded section in order to fix it to the end of a rifle barrel, inside are baffels in some form. They cost from £120 up to God knows what. Build quality varies greatly as does the precision of the manufacture. Oil filters are very similar and they cost £4 - £8!! I know that i'm over simplifing things an awful lot but its food for thought! JC

[Alycidon]

Oil filters for cars /trucks/plant are filtering oil down to so many microns, pretty fine, my area of work for the last 30 years. Very low pressure by and large and very large volumes per unit bring cost per unit down massivly as does CAD machinery. Bosch have an alternator production line in South Wales, 100 yards or so long, manned by one guy, all the work is done by computer operated machines. It normally runs 24/7. High pressure filters and you are looking at several hundred quid a throw depending on how fine you want to filter your oil. Low volume also.

 

I would think the Euro market for moddys would be less than 10,000 per year in total, an oil filter plant will built that in an hour.

 

I do though think that there is a lot of dosh being made here but tooling is expensive and has to be spread over a smaller number of units to minimise payback period. On my rimmys I use a moddy with a plastic one piece baffle, tooling costs for that in 1992 were over 10K for the baffle alone.

 

If the volume sold went up markedly the price per unit would come down.

 

A

[devilishdave]

I guess what you are saying is if for example the yanks could use mods they would be much cheaper due to larger volume of production.

 

Dave

[col48]

I guess what you are saying is if for example the yanks could use mods they would be much cheaper due to larger volume of production.

 

Dave

 

Hi

in a lot of states mods are aloud, but the licence to use one is expensive,($200 i think i heard mentioned) I'm sure Jr will enlighten us.

But yes if the yanks had free access,then i believe that there would be not only a lot of cheaper mods about,but all so better mods about.

I'm mean lets face it £300 for a mod.you can by a hole rifle for that.and look at the design and machining that has goon in to that.

 

ATB

Colin

[Alycidon]

Yep, the more you build the lower the cost per unit. In these days of cheap manufacture frequently one factory will produce all the product for a good slice of the world, all on automated machinery.

 

A

[deerman]

Hi guys,

 

I thought I should join the thread as I am the person manufacturing these moderators in this country. Just to comment on what has been said about titanium properties. The secret of titanium application is getting the grade right, and that's why QSM have spent years doing their R&D and homework and have come up with the correct grade for the application, which is, for obvious reasons, a trade secret. Our titanium is milled to our specifications and that's why we have never had a failure of material or build. In America, I saw the blast baffle sent in by a guy who by mistake had attached his moderator to the wrong pistol and got the bullet trapped in the blast baffle. QSM opened the moderator removed the components, replaced the blast baffle, put it back together, then onto an arbour to check concentricity and alignment, test fired it and had it sent back to the client, who was happy as Larry as he didn't have to pay for a new one or the $200 for another application. The blast baffle bent but did not split or anything. I will obtain a picture of the baffle with the bullet still trapped and post it here in due course.

 

During evaluation tests run by government agencies in the US, some of these cans have had over 20,000 round through them, and most of it on auto fire, so while theories about titanium properties abound, the facts are not fully explored.

 

It took me a trip to the US to be fully convinced, as Col48 will be able to confirm I was an A-Tec convert, having bought two of the very first of those cans to come to these shores, but after having tried QSM moderators there is no going back. So if you contact me in March I should have two second-hand A-Tecs for sale (1/2 UNEF threads with bushings cut out at just under 17mm).

 

I shot these cans in full auto magazine after magazine, including the KRISS .45, MP5 9, as well as some very heavy duty rifle, including the Cheytac M310 .408 and have only praise for what QSM have achieved and that's why I decided to bring the brand to the UK and have it manufactured and distributed here. It is a package that will be hard to beat. Non believers must wait until local write-ups by opinion formers start coming through.

 

Let's keep the comments coming and have useful discussions on all things related to moderators and their applications.

 

Regards to all,

 

George

 

 

Col,

Red has his facts fairly right on titanium.

Titanium can be awkward and is not reliable. At school we

used titanium metall as the bad example in reliability tests when it comes

to load and unload of strain. Some samples would last 100 thousands cycles others failed

after a few cycles

2700 deg is in Farhrenheit. I saw 1677 deg celcius meltpoint somewhere. Not that much over steel.

 

Titanium burns well, or is at least very active at elevated temperatures, that is why

it is used as the active ingredient in the Degussa ceramic brazing method. Metal-ceramic bonding.

 

If one combines density, reliability and strength then titanium is not the winner.

 

 

edi

[Bambi-basher]

Hi Deerman and welcome.

 

While I can see the merit in using titanium for the blast baffles, especially if it is being used on a full auto weapon. The high melting point of 1700 degrees C and corrosion resistance of grade 5 titanium will work well, but the down side is Ti is a poor conductor of heat. I would have thought an outer tube of aluminium would work better than Ti as this will cool quicker. The principle of a moderator works by cooling the hot gas before they exit. What are your thoughts on this?

 

Now the big question how much?

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

[ejg223]

Deerman, welcome

I hope this works out for you and is more than american advertisment.

If doesn't do what the brochure says in Europe the manufacturer is liable..

 

But I am also convinced the right materials combined with right design can lead to

unknown performance. If your Titanium blend has got it right and has lost some of the disadvantages

that it had in the last decades then it's good news.

Just making statements like corrosion resistance only second to platinum will only get you laughs, or

"It has a high modulus of elasticity, which means it can expand somewhat under pressure without fracturing"

which doesn't make sence. (High modulus means stiffer, means less expansion for a given tensile strength)

 

Of course eveyone is interested in moderators because we need them. At the end of the day with our shooting (stalking/ varmint) a

moderator will need to be light, quiet, small and much cheaper than the rifle. 20 000 full auto rounds are not that important.

A-tec was never intended for full auto use but could be improved by changing all baffles to stainless baffles that where or are available.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing one.

are you at the IWA?

 

edi

[Alycidon]

Well if it handles 20,000 rounds in its life let alone on full auto in a few minutes then it will certainly do what we need it to do. BB's comments on heat are interesting as my T8 gets pretty warm as it is after 4 or 5.

 

A

[deerman]

Hi again guys and thanks for your comments. While I do not claim to know my metals and alloys, what I state is based on my experience of this moderators and other that I have shot before. While in the US I only heard good things about them from people in law enforcement, military and the general public.

 

Those of you who have access to the specialised press shout try and get your hands on Guns & Weapons For Law Enforcement (Jan 2003 issue), Small Arms Review (Sep 2004 - Vol 7 No. 12), and Small Arms Review (July 2003, Vol 6 No. 10), where you have independent extensive testing reports on some of the moderators and on the pen gun. In the US, Al Poulson is considered as one of the most highly regarded independent writers and has a huge following. Read what he had to say about these cans. If you have difficulties finding the articles, please let me know and I will try and scan my copies and email to those who request them.

 

As regards the high temperatures achieved when shooting and the effects these can have on accuracy, the usual culprit is not the moderator but the barrel. Titanium will heat up more slowly than steel, and as such as the barrel expands, the fitting will only get tighter and unlikely to come loose. I cannot understand why some people are so concerned about the temperatures achieved during firing. These are unavoidable and much has been done to counter that and many cooling mechanisms and barrel designs have been created to minimise that. Anybody here likes to touch their moderators after shooting to see how warm they are or if they can get burnt? The problem, again, is not the temperature at the moderator end, but at the barrel.

 

What QSM have done is to do their part by designing a moderator that is made out of the best possible materials without compromise. The design eliminates windage shift, and that's why our moderators are sealed, because once they have been tuned, they should be left alone. Shooters in the country have an obsession with cleaning their moderators, and today anything that is not fully stripable is not worth their name. As stated elsewhere, I have been shooting A-Tec for a couple of years now and really like them, but do not spend my time stripping them every so often because there is no need. I know, for a fact, that the A-Tec on my .243 will throw the bullet about 10" low at about 8 o'clock if compared to shooting the rifle without the moderator being attached. This is only down to moderator design. By adding baffles you are creating turbulence inside the tube, and this turbulence need to be adjusted so they they, as far as possible, the turbulence created by one baffle is cancelled out the the turbulence on the next one, and so on and so forth. So this is where R&D is key.

 

I will flying out to Orlando, Florida, on Wednesday to take part in Shot Show 2009. I guess IWA will have to wait until next year.

 

Let's keep this discussion going as I am sure everybody will benefit.

 

Regards to all,

 

George

[deerman]

For a few more testimonials, please visit the following link of the US website:

 

http://www.qsmsilencers.com/testimonials.html

 

Regards,

 

George

 

 

Well if it handles 20,000 rounds in its life let alone on full auto in a few minutes then it will certainly do what we need it to do. BB's comments on heat are interesting as my T8 gets pretty warm as it is after 4 or 5.

 

A

[1967spud]

And for those interested, I still have a few SKB rifle cases left from my first distribution order, including their new Military Standard single and double rifle cases. The cases can be viewed on SKB's webiste at www.skbcases.com

 

The cases come with a lifetime warranty and as if that was not enough, SKB offers a US$1,500 guarantee for damage caused to your rifle and optics during transportation by a commercial airline. Read terms and conditions on their website (http://www.skbcases.com/sports/support/warranty.html)

 

Deerman

 

how much and any piccies as i am looking for one at the moment

 

thanks mark

[deerman]

Mark,

 

Check out SKB site at www.skbcases.com or view my add in www.guntrader.co.uk under Other for Sale - Gun Care - Gun Case for pictures

 

 

how much and any piccies as i am looking for one at the moment

 

thanks mark

[baldie]

Whats the prices going to be in the UK then George ?

 

I,m in the market for a mod for a .338 lapua. What are the options, on thread sizes etc ?

 

Also, a warm welcome to the forum.....moderators are always assured of good debate here.

[deerman]

We haven't yet finalised UK pricing as we are still in the machine coding and manufacturing stages, and all this counts towards the final price. One thing that I can say is that speculation that the moderators will cost the same figure in Sterling as they cost in US dollars is just "speculation". Figures are still coming in, but we are striving to deliver something in the £500-600 price bracket for the .223 family of moderators, and a bit more for the .308 family. PLEASE BEAR IN MIND THAT THESE ARE MERE ESTIMATES, AND COULD GO UP AS WELL AS DOWN, DEPENDING ON FINAL COSTS.

 

People who order before a batch goes into production will be able to have their thread of choice on the end cap cut during the manufacturing process. This will remove one variable from the equation. The tolerances in these cans are very tight and perfect concentricity and alignment between barrel bore and moderator is a must. Any misalignment could lead to bullet strike, so we recommend that you only use a qualified gunsmith to carry out your barrel threading.

 

I am working hard to include magnum models in the next run, so if you are interested, please get in touch with your specifications.

 

Best,

 

George

 

 

 

Whats the prices going to be in the UK then George ?

 

I,m in the market for a mod for a .338 lapua. What are the options, on thread sizes etc ?

 

Also, a warm welcome to the forum.....moderators are always assured of good debate here.

[baldie]

Thank you for your reply George, and they sound very nice.

I would look for military contracts with it George, because you wont sell moderators in the UK at £500 a go. The mod buying public balk at the price of an a_tec, at £270 or whatever they are. We sell a fair few of them, but the majority are PES and BR Tuote, at just over £200. The wildcat is also a good seller, because its a similar price.

The jet-z is a much slower seller, and its purely down to price too, as it a £300 mod.

 

You will rapidly find the mod buying public in the UK, are always full of bright ideas, and opinions, but when it comes down to it, as a majority....they dont, and wont, put their hand in their pocket.

 

A good example of an expensive mod is the Brugger and Thomet, which is full auto rated, mil spec etc..i think it retails here at around £400...ok, its not helped by being marketed by viking arms, but it doesn,t sell here. I know of one in circulation, and its a damn good mod.

 

Please dont take these comments the wrong way, i wish you the best of luck with them, but i think you will struggle buddy.

[Jager SA]

We haven't yet finalised UK pricing as we are still in the machine coding and manufacturing stages, and all this counts towards the final price. One thing that I can say is that speculation that the moderators will cost the same figure in Sterling as they cost in US dollars is just "speculation". Figures are still coming in, but we are striving to deliver something in the £500-600 price bracket for the .223 family of moderators, and a bit more for the .308 family. PLEASE BEAR IN MIND THAT THESE ARE MERE ESTIMATES, AND COULD GO UP AS WELL AS DOWN, DEPENDING ON FINAL COSTS.

 

People who order before a batch goes into production will be able to have their thread of choice on the end cap cut during the manufacturing process. This will remove one variable from the equation. The tolerances in these cans are very tight and perfect concentricity and alignment between barrel bore and moderator is a must. Any misalignment could lead to bullet strike, so we recommend that you only use a qualified gunsmith to carry out your barrel threading.

 

I am working hard to include magnum models in the next run, so if you are interested, please get in touch with your specifications.

 

Best,

 

George

 

 

Ive put this on the other thread but it seems a few people are thinking the same way with regards to the suitablitiy of Titanium for use in moderators. The material isnt as good as what some people seem to think, that coupled with the end cost of production and price to the retail market just makes it non viable. The other factor in this is that Titanium is susceptible to cold weld, once this happens you will run into problems with seperating the metals, again it points to suitability.

A Titanium moderator is going to be heavier than a AA 7075 moderator, the gains, if any are not worth the cost and certainly wouldnt be a viable retailable item here to the everyday shooter.

It appears the market has a lot of moderators out there now and the pricing is up and down depending on your choice, however, unless the Titanium moderator is going to be sub £200 I would save my money.

 

JMO.

[Redfox]

Kal

I have had experience of using Ti alloys in various applications, it can and does very well in some circumstances, but where pressure and heat are concerned it is unreliable.

I appreciate deermans comments and his hands on experiences, but as Edi says it can let go after a considerable time which is still unacceptable.

Cold /friction welding is a feature of other alloys like stainless steel and there are preparations to prevent this out there which are cheap and easy to use, ( In some applications I have had to specify A2-70 ss fixings for particular reasons and they had to be removable for service, a good solution was found for that) the military may see the higher mechanical strength over aluminium to be desirable and pay for it but for our use stainless or aluminium are satisfactory and can be made light enough for our use, at a price that is acceptable.

Redfox

[Jager SA]

Kal

I have had experience of using Ti alloys in various applications, it can and does very well in some circumstances, but where pressure and heat are concerned it is unreliable.

I appreciate deermans comments and his hands on experiences, but as Edi says it can let go after a considerable time which is still unacceptable.

Cold /friction welding is a feature of other alloys like stainless steel and there are preparations to prevent this out there which are cheap and easy to use, ( In some applications I have had to specify A2-70 ss fixings for particular reasons and they had to be removable for service, a good solution was found for that) the military may see the higher mechanical strength over aluminium to be desirable and pay for it but for our use stainless or aluminium are satisfactory and can be made light enough for our use, at a price that is acceptable.

Redfox

 

 

Yes I agree, Titanium does let go under the conditions mentioned, which is as you say unrealiable and unacceptable. I appreciate I sell sound moderators, I have also done a lot of research into them as a result, therefore I see little mileage in a Titanium moderator but still feel that AA 7075 and Stainless to be the best material for us everyday shooters.