243 win or 243 AI?

[Grouse]

I know there are plenty of folks on here that swear by their AI, but if you were having a custom job done do you honestly think it is worth going for the barrel wear of fireforming to get a "better" calibre?

 

Have shot 243 for a long time (vermin and deer) so am set with redding bushing dies for the 243 win. Contemplating a new build and a little voice is saying go with the AI (just because I could!), but that will mean the added expense of new dies - will I really see much of an advantage - in real terms, not target shooting?

 

Will be shooting 68gr upto 85gr (maybe try some heavys in an attempt to defy the wind), barrel length will be in the region of 24" or 25".

 

Cheers

[1967spud]

I know there are plenty of folks on here that swear by their AI, but if you were having a custom job done do you honestly think it is worth going for the barrel wear of fireforming to get a "better" calibre?

 

Have shot 243 for a long time (vermin and deer) so am set with redding bushing dies for the 243 win. Contemplating a new build and a little voice is saying go with the AI (just because I could!), but that will mean the added expense of new dies - will I really see much of an advantage - in real terms, not target shooting?

 

Will be shooting 68gr upto 85gr (maybe try some heavys in an attempt to defy the wind), barrel length will be in the region of 24" or 25".

 

Cheers

 

spending money on a custom and worrying about 100 quid on new dies

 

 

goood god man get an ai you ll never look back

[snap_shot]

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54159

 

 

This may be of help to you,

i have have the very same dilema, and have chosen to stay with the .243 win, i happy with the performance and accuracy i'm getting hence my decision.

[nemasis243]

I surpose its down to what your gonna do with the rifle , I know from my own personal experience that my custom tube 243 win dose everything I want it to do , I only run it using light bullets but it dose what it says on the tin.

Very flat shooting and still hits like a brick.

If you are looking to throw heavy bombs at long distance then the AI would be a better option ,

I can assure you that there are many many foxes and deer you never walked away from a well placed shot

[menial 1]

Always a dilemma, shorter barrel life with AI, sometimes disputed by those who've ackleyed their rifles. Not having to full size again is a bonus once you've fireformed your NEW cases. As you said, the cost of more dies. The cost of the extra powder per round. If you rebarrel and have it chambered

specifically for the lighter rounds you intend to use with a custom tube at 23-24" I would say that you may find .243 is all you need.

I run two .243's, one for stalking/lamping work, the other for long range, I considered AI, but talking to a lot of people that shoot 6mm regularly, the advice given was in favour of a calibre I've always fancied for it's accuracy, much longer barrel life and quite a saving on powder, 6mmBR. One other thing that has helped make me choose this is that most firearms authorities will now give you this cal. for deer work. Just my way of thinking, I'd like to go AI but I feel the gains with lighter bullets may not be worth the hassle. But then again if you don't try it you'll never know if it suits you. Bit like homosexuality really, I think I'll give it a miss.

Pete.

[mildot]

I went for an AI to use with heavier bullets. If i wanted to use lighter ones i.e 60-70's then i would have stuck with a standard .243.

[Andrew]

Stick with the 243. With the powders available today Ackley wouldn't have "improved" the 243. ...And I'm thinking that most people who say their barrels aren't taking a beating with the AI version haven't shot them enough yet. I got rid of every AI I owned but one.~Andrew

[col48]

Stick with the 243. With the powders available today Ackley wouldn't have "improved" the 243. ...And I'm thinking that most people who say their barrels aren't taking a beating with the AI version haven't shot them enough yet. I got rid of every AI I owned but one.~Andrew

 

 

Andrew

 

i thought the only reason he ackleyed the case was to do with case stretching,nothing at all to do with powder choice.

 

Parker Ackley reluctantly developed the .243 Ackley Improved ("AI"). Ackley finally gave in to his customers' requests to develop the .243 AI. He had always felt that the .243 Winchester was already an improved configuration, but he did say that the best thing to be gained by improving the .243 Winchester was to substantially reduce the case-stretching problems. The .243 Winchester parent case has always stretched brass, almost as bad as the Swift. Even though you get more velocity with the improved .243, I've also found that the improved version gives a bit more throat life than the parent case does. The .243 AI delivers more velocity by virtue of enhanced case capacity--roughly five grains more H20 capacity than a standard .243 Winchester. The .243 AI has a water capacity of approximately 57 to 58 grains, compared to 52-53 grains for the standard .243 Winchester.

 

this was taken from http://www.6mmbr.com/243Win.html

 

ATB

Colin

[Grouse]

Thanks for the comments so far fellas, cannot see a vast benefit at the moment (well not velocity wise, and in a custom set up surely straight 243 win will be very accurate), I have never found it a major chore prepping cases, but can see a definate disadvantage in using barrel life up to get fireformed cases (though from what I have seen win cases shoot well whilst fireforming too??).

 

Mildot - my thoughts as to why I might go AI, to use heavier bullets, but I will want to use 70 grainers too, maybe a compromise can be made so that the lighter projectiles don't "jump" to the lands (don't want to limit myself entirely to the heavier stuff!).

 

Colin - thanks, have read that before from 6mmbr (I just know you are going to say 6x47 aren't you???!!!)

 

Spud - You norfolk boys certainly know how to put the fear up those sugar beet with your AI's don't you

 

Menial - have fancied a 6br but is not a bit loopy in the wind? (guess I am admitting that at times I am not great at wind reading!!) Love the sound of the accuracy potential though!

 

Any AI users/riflesmith's care to elaborate on the "the improved version gives a bit more throat life than the parent case does", surely basic physics tells us that more powder = more wear, or is it something else at work here?

[Ronin]

Nightwalker

 

re the last part of your post rearding throat life:

 

Ive run a 22-250 for a number of years and I run it reasonably warm, I borescoped it a month or two ago and there is not much throat erosion at all (or firecracking for that matter)

 

 

The 40 degree shoulder angle causes the gasses on firing to meet within the case neck rather than at the throat as with most other cases - just my theory, but in my own rifle this seems to stand up.

 

 

I accept that the gasses still wash over the throat and must cause some cutting, but it appears to be reduced in the AI case I run - dont know if anyone else has found this.

[Andrew]

Andrew

 

i thought the only reason he ackleyed the case was to do with case stretching,nothing at all to do with powder choice.

 

 

 

this was taken from http://www.6mmbr.com/243Win.html

 

ATB

Colin

 

Note that the only real benefit was the lack of case stretching. This was probably incidental because the "customers" certainly didn't want it for that reason. They wanted speed. The original concept was two fold: to increase the case capacity of some "under-bore" cases such as the 30-30, 30-40, etal. and / or to utilize slow burning surplus powders available in quantity back in the 60's in cases where an increased capacity would add velocity without incurring substantial added pressures. Ackley would only advocate "improving" and already over-bore, high pressure round if the shooter was going to utilize a powder slower than what would normally be used. I mean, if you have a cartridge that generates 60K pressures, how much more powder do you want to put into it and expect it to remain a safe and viable round? In the Lyman #43 reloading manual (I believe) he writes a few pages to that exact effect. ~Andrew

[col48]

Note that the only real benefit was the lack of case stretching. This was probably incidental because the "customers" certainly didn't want it for that reason. They wanted speed. The original concept was two fold: to increase the case capacity of some "under-bore" cases such as the 30-30, 30-40, etal. and / or to utilize slow burning surplus powders available in quantity back in the 60's in cases where an increased capacity would add velocity without incurring substantial added pressures. Ackley would only advocate "improving" and already over-bore, high pressure round if the shooter was going to utilize a powder slower than what would normally be used. I mean, if you have a cartridge that generates 60K pressures, how much more powder do you want to put into it and expect it to remain a safe and viable round? In the Lyman #43 reloading manual (I believe) he writes a few pages to that exact effect. ~Andrew

 

 

i have all so read some where (might even be the same one as i have just put a link up to) that the 243 AI does not burn barrels as fast as the standard 243.

 

having said all this i am unsure if i would have another 243 AI or just stick with the standard 243.

 

nightwalker uk

 

No - i would not tell you to go for the 6x47 i would go with what your heart tells you,But if you don't go for the AI you will always be wondering what if.

i have 243 and 243 AI and 243 AI 280 tight neck, so just think of the dilemma i will have if i have another 243

if you are going to shoot the 105 or bigger i would definitely go AI but if you are going to shoot 70g or under i don't think you will miss a lot with not AI ing it.

 

ATB

Colin

[Vermincinerator]

Here's my spanner in the works, if you want a 6mm improved look no further then just that, 6mm Rem or 244 Rem Improved.

Based on the 7x57 case it has very near the same capacity of the 243 Ackley but a longer neck, said by some to help combat throat erosion.

If you want arguably the best AI cartridge it has to be the 257 Ackley Improved, ballistically it has the edge over both the 243 AI and the 6mm AI and is regarded by P.O Ackley himself as one of his best creations.

 

Ian.

[skany]

I have a shillen tubed ai

 

i struggle to get the velocity i expected to be fair

 

i can scrape 3800 with 65g vamx & 3720 with 68g bergers but my brass primer pockets are getting a full on kicking!

 

it is REALY acurate mind & the brass has never been trimmed & jsut dosent seem to streach!

 

it was sub 1/4 whilst forming so no problem there!

 

but when ur chronoing with a chap puting out the same 65g vmax at around 3400 with a 6mm ppc it makes u think was it worth it !(cheers Ray:-))

 

 

id consider a 6mm br next time around! as u can get 22-250 like velocity with 58g loads & still punt a heavy a fair way:-)

 

ANdy

[Grouse]

Some very honest opinions appearing, really appretiate the input.

 

With carefull thought I am just going with the straight 243win - set up for it and know what to expect from the calibre.

 

At the end of the day couldn't really be hassled to fireform the cases to AI for a little velocity increase. Would rather spend that time on case prepping the win brass.

 

Each to there own though!!

[eldon]

Not wishing to pinch your thread but ......

Can somebody give me the real benefits of 6mm br versus standard 243?

 

I keep leaning towards 6mm br but 243 is easier to come by and I don't want single shot, will it be a reliable feeder?

[Grouse]

Not wishing to pinch your thread but ......

Can somebody give me the real benefits of 6mm br versus standard 243?

 

I keep leaning towards 6mm br but 243 is easier to come by and I don't want single shot, will it be a reliable feeder?

 

No problem on pinching thread if you like - the way I see it the 6mmbr is a more efficient round, fuelled by less powder, small rifle primer - lighter recoil therefore potentially can be shot more accurately - I would have looked at 6mmbr if it wasn't for it being more affected by wind over the 243 AND the issues with it being used on a repeater action(oh yes and the case prepping issue again!).

[Guest varmartin]

First lest get the `being affected by wind more `out the way....a `6mm BR` is not affected more by the wind. ( its projectiles moving at a slower velocity may be ) but if that was an issue then so many world records would not have be set by this caliber....then there is the case prep issues ????? get Lapua brass and load them, and off you go ..!!! there is no need to prep cases for a 6mm BR or a 243 win than any other caliber...if you use quality brass.

 

nightwalker uk..hope you dont mind me quoting you...

 

Will be shooting 68gr upto 85gr (maybe try some heavys in an attempt to defy the wind), barrel length will be in the region of 24" or 25".

 

If you want to`defy the wind`...shooting heavy bullets will not help you. What you need to use are bullets with the highest BC available.

 

eg.....100 grain Norma soft point has a BC of 0.257..wind drift @3000fps =12 inches at 300 yards

95 grain Berger VLD has a BC of 0.524..wind drift @3000fps=5.3 inches at 300 yards

 

A 243 win would need to push a 100 grn SP @ over 4500 fps to match a 6mm BR /95 berger @3000 fps. ( for wind drift. )

 

Moral of the story...its not how fast or how much powder it takes ..its about correct bullet selection and the case design that makes for an accurate cartridge.

 

 

 

Read all this first.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>243 win info

 

Then read this and make your mind up ..>>.>>>>>>>>6mm BR info.

[varminter]

First lest get the `being affected by wind more `out the way....a `6mm BR` is not affected more by the wind. ( its projectiles moving at a slower velocity may be ) but if that was an issue then so many world records would not have be set by this caliber....then there is the case prep issues ????? get Lapua brass and load them, and off you go ..!!! there is no need to prep cases for a 6mm BR or a 243 win than any other caliber...if you use quality brass.

 

nightwalker uk..hope you dont mind me quoting you...

 

Will be shooting 68gr upto 85gr (maybe try some heavys in an attempt to defy the wind), barrel length will be in the region of 24" or 25".

 

If you want to`defy the wind`...shooting heavy bullets will not help you. What you need to use are bullets with the highest BC available.

 

eg.....100 grain Norma soft point has a BC of 0.257

95 grain Berger VLD has a BC of 0.524

 

 

 

Read all this first.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>243 win info

 

Then read this and make your mind up ..>>.>>>>>>>>6mm BR info.

 

 

What about a 243 ackley with a 26 inch tube running 105 A-maxs at 3150 fps!!!!

Remember that one Martin!!!!!!!!!

Still regretting selling that one!!!!

All the best...........

RAY..................................

[Guest varmartin]

O yes baby.....remember it very well, and how many rounds did you get out of that tube ??? and it was still going strong when you sold it. !!

[varminter]

O yes baby.....remember it very well, and how many rounds did you get out of that tube ??? and it was still going strong when you sold it. !!

 

It was 1900 rounds , but the call of a 6.5-284 was getting fore-ever stronger and in the end i gave in!!!!

All the best buddy!!!!!!!!!

RAY................................... :D

[Grouse]

Yes ok boys, haven't really explained my requirements fully there at all.

 

In my "going heavier bullets to defy wind" , what I really meant was by going heavier also getting a higher BC (better in wind) BUT one that will also work on fox's (I know the 105 Amax does).

 

Am I wrong in my understanding that given the SAME bullet/projectile with the same BC then the 243win has the potential to offer higher velocities therefore making it a flatter shooter and better in the wind?

 

Will be pleased to hear if this is incorrect, could throw another variant into the mixing bowl!

 

Case prep issue, yep hands up I was thinking about a 22BR (am I right in assuming these are not offered in "standard" form but need to be necked down?).

 

Can a 6BR be made as 100% reliable repeater?

[Guest varmartin]

Yes ok boys, haven't really explained my requirements fully there at all.

 

In my "going heavier bullets to defy wind" , what I really meant was by going heavier also getting a higher BC (better in wind) BUT one that will also work on fox's (I know the 105 Amax does).

The 87 vmax is another very good bullet.

 

Am I wrong in my understanding that given the SAME bullet/projectile with the same BC then the 243win has the potential to offer higher velocities therefore making it a flatter shooter and better in the wind?

You are not wrong

 

 

Will be pleased to hear if this is incorrect, could throw another variant into the mixing bowl!

 

Case prep issue, yep hands up I was thinking about a 22BR (am I right in assuming these are not offered in "standard" form but need to be necked down?).

I am not 100%, but dont think 22BR brass is available off the shelf.

 

Can a 6BR be made as 100% reliable repeater?

Yes it can....there are those on here that have done it

But i for one would not want to lose expensive brass by ejecting it out at night when foxing......get a 6mmBR and make that first shot the only one you need

[Grouse]

I always pick up my expensive brass too (cannot think I have ever lost a case), but can think of loads of scenarios when I need more than 1 shot - the other shots are at other targets AND all shots have been ACCURATELY placed, I am not talking about stationary fruit targets here!!

 

Agree the 87gr is an excellant bullet and when pushed hard is it from the 6br or the 243 that it bucks the wind best in???

 

Good Shooting

[Guest varmartin]

Its going back a while, but when it was a 243win Rem700 VLS 1-9 +a bit twist it pushed them out @ 3200fps. At best it was a 3/4 MOA rifle.

 

When pushed hard, my 6MMBR 1-8 twist lets the 87vmax go @3100fps....but it is now a 1/4 MOA rifle....add that into the equation and at range...???? thats why its now a 6mm BR