Flatest .224 round avaliable

[chaz]

As above, i'm trying to find the flatest projectile i can get for a .223 Remington, in a 1 in 8 twist Tikka rifle.

I'm thinking along the lines of 200 yards. + (if possible)...

I'll be using ppu brass, and Fed Gold primers. Or my Lapua brass, and CCI BR4 primers, or any combo.

I was thinking of a 40 grain Hornady V-Max???

But i'm happy to accept more experience from a better shooter/reloader than me, (which is most)..

I have Viht N133 , and N135. Along with IMR 8208xbr, or Hodgdon BLC2. My primers being CCI standard, CCI Bench Rest 4. Or, as mentioned Fed Gold..

I'm thinking 40 grain V-Max, with N133 or XBR maybe the the best solution, but i'm open to people with more experience than me, (which is most).....

Any combo or bullet, powder, and primer, would be very helpful, if possible....

Any constructive response would be appreciated very much.

Regards

Chaz.

 

 

 

 

[gbal]

Saami commercial loads will givea good idea of what is safely attainable drop/drift "10 mph wind 200y zero:

 

Hornady 40vmax BC.200@ 3800 100 .9/1.2 200 0/5 300 -5.5/11.9

Federal 40 Nosler BT BC .221@ 3700 100 1/1.1 200 0/4.5 300 -8/10.8

Black Hills 40Nosler BT BC.2 @3600 1001.1/1.2 200 0/5.2 300 -6.3/12.7

Cor Bon 40 BlitzKing BC.210 @3400 100 1.3/1.2 200 0/5.3 300 -7/12.9

Ultramax 40 Nosler BT BC.221 @3200 100 1.6/1.3 200 0/5.4 300 -7.8/13.2

 

Black hills 50Vmax BC.242 @3300 100 1.3/1.1 200 0/4.7 300 -6.8/11.4

Federal 55 Sierra GK BC .25@3240 100 1.4/1.1 200 0/4.6 300-7.1/11.2

Hornady 55vmax BC.255 @ 3240 100 1.4/1.1 200 0/4.6 300 -7/11

 

Federal 69 Custom Comp BC .305@2900 100 1.8/1 200 0/4.4 300 -8.4/10.4

 

These small-very small- differnces will be preserved if marginally reduced with warmer loads.Better BC bulletshave somewhat more advantage as distance increases-but then drop/drift become excessive too (eg a75g bulletBC .4 @2800 gives 86/38 at 600-cf the Hornady BC .2 40g@3800 is 72/56 at 600.

 

You can see that to 200 zero there really is not much difference in trajectory,within normal BCs and velocities -and it follows that 100 or so fps makes quite marginal differnces (a click for targets,probably barely observable in the field.

 

Work up accuracy loads with whatever components give bst accuracy-really a rifle thing. The ballistics are going to be as above-pretty close! V133 with 40vmax is usually a good load (and 50vmax is very close).

Components matter very little here,but you might expect the best not to be worse in accuracy.

It's no big deal,at this level-despite claims of 'laser like' for only some-nope,it's laws of physics as the range of loads above show.Rifles have their preferences-individually-for accuracy. Can't go wrong with a small selection-don't test every possibility....

 

gbal

[duey]

I would go for the heavier bullets in the twist rate you have and maximise wind bucking ability

Out to 200yds, as gbal states, small gains in elevation over this distance is neither here or there

[Sherlock]

Hi Chaz.

for out and out speed and putting any issues of barrel life and accuracy aside.

The 223 is far from being the fastest or flattest 224 cal. If you want to stay mainstream - the 22.250 or 220 swift have very impressive figures zipping the lighter 40 grn bullets at speeds in excess of 4200 fps. without any issue of over pressure ect.

 

The 223 is capable of shooting the same bullet at speeds around 3800 fps.. Which in actual fact , will make NO real difference on vermin or out foxing at 250 yrds.

 

An 8 twist will spin those bullet really fast and there will be issues if you shoot a tight twist 22.250 with lighter bullets - They simply come apart during flight due to the centrifugal forces and the frangible design of the pill.

 

if you want speed - maybe you should look at slower twist tubes - a 1-12 is ideal for a 223 and will shoot all bullets up to 60 + grains. or 14 twist for the 22.250 / 220 Swift.

 

For a 223 / 40 grn bullet combo - my choice is either Vit 133 or Benchmark - both hit speeds around 3800 fps.

 

ATB

S

[gbal]

I'll just add drop drifts for 'heavies' ......

 

75g .39 @2750 300 -8.6/8.4 400 -25/15.7

77 .350@ 2800 300 -8.6/9.3 400 -25.3/17.4

77 .362 @2790 300 -8.5/9 400 -25.1/16.8

77 .372@ 2720 300 -9/9 400 -26/16.9

77 .390 @2750 300 -8.6/8.4 400-25.1/15.7

 

a 3 mph wind call error still means a 4 inch error at 40- to add to any other group/shooting etc error....that's an wind error up to 400 y away,remember-not what the Kestrel says correctly,at the muzzle.

 

Every little helps.....or does it?

 

22/250 50 vmax .242 @3850 300 -4.8/9.3 400 -14.8/17.6......

 

Swift 55.255 @3680 300 -5.2/9.2 400 -15.9/17.4

 

243 55g .276 @3800 300 -5/9.2 400 -15.4/17.4......

 

gbal

[Dalua]

Will barrel-length have some bearing on the velocity figures being quoted?

[Chris-NZ]

If it wasn't for the fast twist, I'd say go for the 53 V-Max as these have an excellent BC for their weight, better than the 55 brother in fact.

I'd still give it a go in the fast twist- you might be pleasantly surprised..

[lapua]

The 8 twist t3 i load for wont shoot the 40gn bullets but shoots 50's fine. 27gn h4895 gives 3450fps

[gbal]

Will barrel-length have some bearing on the velocity figures being quoted?

Dalua,barrel length always has some effect on MVs,of course.15-20 fps per inch reduction is often ballpark

The point of using SAAMI sandard is that it's a 24 inch barrel for them all-so the data keeps its relative ccomparisons-which is that there really is not much differnce at all between most in the normal velocity,BC and distance mentioned.

You can check out the difference say 4" or 80 fps makes in the data,or near enough,as there are SAAMI loads given with greater MV differences.Even with lower BC as well,the difference is minor at short (250y) range.

 

Just for fun,the 204 Ruger 40Vmax BC.275 24" @3900 is -4.3/7.8 at 300y,which is about an inch less drop than 223 40 max BC .221 24@3700though drift is 4" less (5.5/11.90 and for 223) -combined effect of 200fps less and considerably poorer BC.....which is much more noticeably by 400y (-13.2/14.7 for 204 and -17.6/22.9 for 223) though arguably they are both becoming unuseable ethically in 10 mph wind for quarry,as contrasted with a tin can.

 

g

[chaz]

Thanks folks.

Apologies for the delay, i've been out zapping with my WSM...

It's a standard Tikka T3/Hunter in .223 Rem, with a 1 in 8 twist, and a 22" sporter barrel.

Cheers

[Sherlock]

Just for fun,the 204 Ruger 40Vmax BC.275 24" @3900 is -4.3/7.8 at 300y,which is about an inch less drop than 223 40 max BC .221 24@3700though drift is 4" less (5.5/11.90 and for 223) -combined effect of 200fps less and considerably poorer BC.....which is much more noticeably by 400y (-13.2/14.7 for 204 and -17.6/22.9 for 223) though arguably they are both becoming unuseable ethically in 10 mph wind for quarry,as contrasted with a tin can.

 

g

 

This is the problem if you only rely on the statistics that were originally used by the manufacturers to flog the 204 without actually putting their claims to the test,

Unfortunately it is a case of using incorrect data - As they say " B.S in - and B.S out" .

 

The two crucial figures that are used to give the massive difference in performance over the 223 (Namely the bullets BC and velocity) are shamelessly hyped up.

In the field trials I conducted when I owned my two 204 rifles , the velocities were typically around 3700 - 3800fps ( not 3900). Factory ammo that claimed 3900 fps on the box was giving 3650 fps. (24 inch barrel - 11 twist tube on 204 BTW)

 

I also tested the claims of the BC after noticing that shots always landed low at 400 yrds + . I did this by shooting over two Crono's set 200 yrds apart and measuring the velocity drop between them.

I calculated the true BC of the 40 grn 20 cal bullet is approx. 0.240 to 0..250 .. but not 0..275. Now if you run the real figures through the Ballistic programme things are MUCH closer.

 

I was able to compare my 204 directly against my standard Tikka 595 - 223 .. The 223 was shooting a 40 grn Nosler - whilst the 204 was shooting a 40 grn Vmax - ( velocities were 3740 v 3780 respectively)

The 204 dropped 1 about one inch less at 400 yrds. This was also a shock to me as I also had been convinced by the hype and marketing blurb the difference would be significant - as quoted in your post.

 

In truth , the ballistic advantage of the 204 compared to the 223 ( both shooting 40 grn bullets) is negligible in the field.

 

 

 

BACK to the question - personally I would use a 50 + grain bullet - SBK ( 50 or 55) or 53 grn Vmax

[gbal]

Sherlock,thanks-you notice iI did say 'just for fun' and noted the 204 was only an inch less drop by 300y.....and used the published figuresto show just how much BC/MV has to differ to get significant shooting differences.....on which we agree,I think!

But it is important to check manufacturers claims in real rifle testing-probably with a fair sample of rifles,ideally-dificult though that can be over distances.

Since the 204 is based on a 222Rem Mag case,and so very similar to 223Rem,any substantial potential improvement would have to come also from the powder-"Superformance" is in the frame,if available.

Overall,the data do not give convincing support to much superiority for any loadings in these 224s out to 300y...unless an inch is considered 'superior'-they are all similarly shallow rainbow 'lasers'as indeed are most varmint cartridges under 300y-and 'flatter' is a rather misleading term,hinting at much more.

g

[VarmLR]

I shoot the 60grn flat base V-max in the field, and for a 200 yd zero, it shoots about 1.6 inches high at 100 (based on MY scope height). It groups very well from a 1/8 twist barrel and achieves 3150fps with around 23.2 grains N133 in my rifle. For vermin control, it is all I've ever needed...point and shoot to 230 yards, with a little allowance between 70 and 150-ish (I aim about an inch low between those ranges) otherwise point and shoot. I have also tried the TMK69's in the field, and can't, at reasonable ranges, see any real advantages to 200 yds using the larger and more expensive round. The 60gr V-max is an excellent all round bullet which carries some advantages over the lighter bullets at more extended ranges. The 53gr can be very rifle/barrel fussy. I prefer the 60g if shooting the 1/8 twist barrel.

[chaz]

Thanks all for the info provided. First off, i've no current intention to change my Tikka T3, as i love it!

Firstly, when I said the flattest projectile, i mean't over a distance of say 200 to 250 yards maximum.

 

Funny enough Sherlock, i do have a good size tub of N133, it's just the 40 grain heads i'll need...

I also found my .204R with 32, or 40's to be reach around the 3700 fps before signs of over pressure started to appear. That was enough for me.. And my .223R with 55 V-Max heads to reach around 3200 fps, again before worring signs started to appear...

I have to admit to not being a fan of aiming over and shooting under. No idea why, just always been a 100 yard zero man myself...

 

As for using the 50 grain V-Max heads, i found these to be the most accurate of all the heads i tried out to 200 yards or so. But at the time the 55's were is good supply, so i concentrated on them..

 

As for B.C, i was always told that it never really kicked in until around 200-250 yards. Was this not true then folks??

 

As for "Superformance" George, after all the hassle we had getting hold of any decent powder a while ago, i tend to stick to Viht now.

 

Thanks for all the replies folks, much appreciated.

Regards

Chaz.

[gbal]

Chaz,your welcome-it may help others to have accurate data rather than hearsay too,when deciding...

 

I did emphasise that to about 300,certainly 200-250 neither velocity nor BC have mre than an inch effecs (assuming reasonable values- 3200 eg is about SAAMI commercial).I've been arguing this for ages,with the ballistic data in support.....

 

Likewise I was saying Superperformance might explain factory claims,not advocating its use.Vihtavuori has been excellent in every cartridge I've loaded-I use no other. Use bullets your barrel likes-50g is a good weight if it does like the brand.Heavier have no advantage at 200-250y,othe than more energy-to do what?

My fav is an A1 short barrel Sako in 222,40-50g,V133,which will hold shots in .3 ,as long as it does it's bit,though never needed more than one. Pure classic joy. :-)

 

Always seems sensible to me to zero at the modal (most likely) shooting distance-fewer adjusts. But unless every shot is at that distance,whether 100 or 200 etc,there just to be (minor) adjust (clicks or hold over/under).Nothing is flat,though clearly you know that....not even the 22/250 AI-reputed by old timers on it's introduction to be dead flat to 300y,then 'rise up a mite'....alas,neither trajectories are true. :-)

 

george