6.5 x 47 Lapua - Sanity Check!!

[Morse]

Afternoon chaps..... Having come back from the range having tested out the new creation that 'Baldie' has put together for me and been mightily impressed with the consistency using some of the LR Capts loads.

 

It is time to start putting together my go-to load for this new shooting stick....however RL powders etc... so no-go for me (the rifle is Defiance Deviant, 6.5x47, 27" barrel Bartlein HV profile in an AT stock thats been skinned - used for up to 900m paper and gong bashing)

 

I need to use 123gr Lap Scenars and Vhit N140 powder with CCI BR4 primers, the brass is lapua's finest (I know there are other ideas on this but thats what I have for a variety of good logistical reasons sorry so its fixed for a good while yet!!)

 

The 'try round' jam fit into the lands gives an OAL of 2.753" (checked a few times)

The Vit N140 round OAL for this bullet is suggested as OAL of 2.736"

 

***DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS WITH USING THE ABOVE INGREDIENTS OR ANY SUGGESTIONS AS A START POINT?***KEEN TO HEAR IF ANYONE HAS FOUND A DECENT ACCURACY NODE WITH THESE INGREDIENTS***

 

Failing that I have my own suggestion that I would appreciate a sanity check / feedback on.....

 

I am confident to load up at 36gr N140 and work upwards very slowly being mindful of pressure signs. I have form for running at the top end of the safe load spectrum but I have been loading for a good while and my OCD and record keeping helps along with kit that I trust but still check.This is below the 36.4gr maximum in the lapua website and I am using a charge master and sanity weighing on a beam scale every 10 throws.

 

**Sanity check please!** From this I will probably construct the rounds to be 2.743" to start and work towards 'no jump' to the touching lands measurement. 36gr Vit N140 into a prepped new lapua case and set off with a CCI BR4 primer and then adjust to jump.

 

Thank you very much in advance.....

 

 

 

[Laurie]

The 123 Scenar doesn't need (or want) to touch the lands. I'd recommend using a 15-thou' jump and tune the load to work with that. 10 thou' is fine providing you're 100% certain your 2.753" measured value on the lands is not only 100% accurate but is truly only just 'kissing' the lands. (If you got the measurement with a Hornady L-N-L / Stoney-Point OAL gauge, I'd warn it's a fine bit of kit for run of the mill 308, 243 etc factory chambers, but often gives inaccurate results - 5 or even 10 thou' out, usually on the over-long COAL side - with minimum SAAMI chambers and the sort of good tight match chamber that I'm sure Baldie has put into your rifle.)

 

(To be honest, I've given up on this tool for custom rifles and use an inert round seated over-long, the bolt stripped of its firing mechanism and a combination of seating the bullet progressively deeper, 'feeling' for chambering resistance through the bolt, and examining the bullet ogive with a powerful magnifying glass looking for rifling marks, regularly replacing the bullet with a 'clean' one during the process. You need the magnifying glass as on reaching the end of the process you will not feel any bullet seating resistance with a barely-touching 'jam', so you need to be able to see a hardly discernible fractional broken line that represents 5-thou' 'in' and then seat the bullet some 15 or 20 thou' deeper from there. It really is important with this little cartridge to have the bullet where you think it is and not be in a some just touch, some just don't situation that is guaranteed to produce fliers. Or .... you think it's out, but it's actually a little 'in' which really does push pressures up and can also see a good initial load deteriorate as soon as some erosion occurs. If you're not using this tool, ignore all this rant. There are other accurate tools and methods in use too, I'm used to 'my' inert round methodology.)

 

I'm puzzled by your reference to Lapua brass. Not only is it generally good, but what is the alternative? Unless I've missed something somewhere, you have an easy choice in this regard as there is Lapua ... or Lapua, nobody else making or ever having ever made cases for this cartridge. And, I can't think of anything else I'd reform to 6.5X47L. The brass I used in my 6.5X47L for long-range F-Class had the primer flash-holes uniformed at 0.061" dia. with a Sinclair small flash-hole reamer tool and had a very light neck-turn to get all neck thickness readings both between each case and around each individual case-neck to within a couple of tenths of a thou' - and I'm not necessarily convinced that either action was necessary, more insurance really.

 

Load-wise, I only ever used one combination in my 6.5X47L apart from running-in and a very small amount of initial development. IME 6.5X47L rifles either like powders in the N140, VarGet, Re15, RS52 band or in a slightly slower burning rate group - the 4350s, N150/550, likely Reload Swiss RS62 but that came after my rifle's barrel went belly-up, and similar powders. Mine wouldn't perform worth a damn with the first group, three-quarter inch plus 5-rounds at 100. Tried N150 plus the 123 Scenar and it was the dream team - worked up to just short of 3,000 fps with a 30-inch barrel and never changed it with sub 0.3-MOA groups and small MV spreads.

 

So, if you MUST use N140, just pray your barrel falls into the first group, although having said that, N140 actually falls between VarGet and N150 in burning rate. It's not a powder I've used in the cartridge, and although I'm sure there are some around who have, you don't tend to meet that many users - so hope there are some here on the forum with some range-tested load recommendations for you.

 

I'd be a bit wary of starting at 36gn unless you get feedback from others suggesting it's mild. QuickLOAD says just over 57,000 psi with your combination and using the default case capacity (can't remember off the top what my actual fireformed case capacity was in grains water, but I don't think the 'default' was wildly out as sometimes happens). That's 6,000 psi below the allowed CIP MAP, but I've found QuickLOAD serially underestimates pressures in the smaller 6.5s for reasons I can't explain except that maybe I keep buying 'tight' barrels from people. As a result, my initial load development for all of these cartridges uses QL's charge computed to produce ~54,000 or 55,000 psi as my top initial charge, not my starting level. In this case QL says 36.0gn for a bit over 55,000 psi. The other thing to remember is that small increments produce big, BIG pressure increases in this cartridge - 1gn N140 = ~4,500 psi, so you want to go up in 0.2gn steps above 36gn taking you up by a little below 1,000 psi with each step.

[srvet]

I have used N140 and the 123 scenar a bit in the past though I tend to use Varget as a rule these days. My rifle is a little pressure sensitive compared to others, almost certainly due to the slack factory remington firing pin (must get that sorted at some stage!). In my rifle I started getting pressure signs from around 37 g of N140. As such I too would start lower than 36g if i were starting from scratch. The Viht loading guide lists this powder and bullet combination and starts at 33.2 to max at 36.4 with N140 and the 123 Scenar. This sounds about right to me.

 

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/6-5-x-47-lapua.html

[Chris-NZ]

Only other comment I'd make is that CCI-450s are generally agreed as the best primer for this cartridge, though BR4s often get a mention.

 

The case can hide a fair bit of pressure so Laurie's warning about smaller load increments makes sense.

[Gandy]

I've used n150 and Varget both have worked really well.

[Morse]

Thank you all on this, have modified my suggestion a bit based on what the group is coming up with, I know it was a big ask...

 

2.740 OAL and start at 35.6gr N140. Hopefully this will give me a decent start but still open to suggestions... The primed brass is sitting on the bench until fri morning so any N140 types then shout up!! I will report back what ever I end up trying so its out there for the good of all to try in the future or avoid like the plague!!!

[Morse]

Update from the first lot of experimentation using N140..... The good news is that N140 and Lapua 123gr 6.5's seem to work quite nicely. It may have a lot to do with the excellent built quality from Baldie on this rifle but here are the results so far.....

 

I prepped up 10 rounds of each in new Lapua brass, with some basic case prep albeit I trusted Lapua on providing me with the brass nicely sized (now they are fire formed I will just neck size mostly as I do for my .308 and recon that this will help with consistency). Charges weighed on the chargemaster. OAL was off the lands at 2.740"

 

35.0, 35.2, 35.4, 35.6, 35.8, 36.0, 36.2, 36.4, 36.5, 36.6 grain loads of N140 & CCI BR primers and fired them in 2 x 5 round groups with a barrel cool down for 10 mins between each group and every 20 rounds a clean thorough until patching clear. Groups were fired off both front and rear bags from a bench.

 

I worked from low to high charges so I could be mindful of pressure signs and the good news is there were none but I don't propose to go any higher than I have done. Looking at the brass there was very little difference if any in the primer markings or markings to the brass and I didn't notice any tough opening bolt moments albeit that the deviant action is smooth and the primary extraction is massive hence why I kept things low to high incase the action masked things.

 

Was a slow time on the range but made for a nice day out and the weather was decent and still

 

The top three groups of the day were at:

1. 36.6gr - 9.8mm

2. 36.0gr - 11.4mm

3. 36.5gr - 12.7mm

 

Measured edge to edge of the 5 round group at the largest POI. I was amazed with the 9.8mm group and I did have to double check that there weren't some random stray rounds on the card some distance away. I do think that the weight of this setup and the trigger has helped with consistency but these are now the 'top 3' that I shall do further work on in terms of playing with seating depth and then getting the chromo on them to determine MV and ES. So far N140 looks promising for use in 6.5x47. The rifle clearly favoured the higher charges from the results presented with the lower down charges ranging in from 19-15mm edge to edge. I think that now the barrel has been nicely broken in and I have fire formed brass if things continue the only thing I can blame for a bad group is my bad shooting!!

[Catch-22]

Hi Morse,

 

I recently got my Tikka M595 back from Stuart @ Osprey, and have been trying a variety of heads (120MK, 123MK, 123 Scenars, 139 Scenars & 140 Noslers) and powder combinations (N140 and Lovex SO70).

 

My rifle has a 24" Begera barrel cut with a tight match chamber (no neck turn) and surprisingly it's shot very well with both N140 and Lovex SO70 (old Accurate 4350 - similar to H4350) - so bucks the trend by liking both slow and fast powders. I'm also using Lapua brass but CCI450 small magnum primers.

 

With the 123 Scenars, I was loading to 2.145" (to o-give). I had to do this by trial and error as I couldn't get my Hornady gauge to fit in the chamber (yes...it's a tight chamber).

 

**the safety bit - the following is safe in my rifle...it may not be in yours!**

 

The N140 node I found that worked really well was; 37.8, 38.1 and 38.4. I saw no signs of pressure at all (no sticky bolt lift, no primer flattening or primer flow and no ejector marks/swipes). I intend to go up .3g increments to see if I can eek out just a little more without being silly.

 

The good node I found with Lovex SO70 was; 40.4, 40.7 and 41.0. Again, zero pressure signs. Seemed consistent with both 123g Matchkings and Scenars. Again, I'll be working up .3g increments.

 

Groups shot with both powder and bullet combinations were about 1" at 300m and seemed consistent. I'm continuing to try both powders but I'm leaning towards N140 (or maybe N150) as it seems a little cleaner burning than SO70 (inside of case necks look visibly less sooty with N140).

 

I have no idea about velocity as I didn't have a chrony with me at the time.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Kon

[Morse]

Catch-22.

Thanks for that, good to here your success with N140. I think its probably very barrel dependent, I will be out trying some more at 36.6gr playing with seating depths however I may push further on, it is outside book level your suggestions but its very dependent on the build however the barrel length on mine is 27" so the node could well be different on mine. I will report back on the thread the results (prob now back end of next week now) and I will try and take a chrono out with me if it is any help to the 'group'.

[Catch-22]

Well I managed to get out the other day and chrony some test loads.

 

Definite accuracy node between 38.4g and 38.7g VN140 regardless of whether I'm using 123 Matchkings or Scenars.

Accuracy was very good with either load combination, best of the day was 0.3" @ 100m (see attached).

 

Velocity (in my 24", 1-8 twist barrel) was;

 

N140 // 38.4g //123g MK or Scenar // 2900fps

 

N140 // 38.7g // 123g MK or Scenar // 2940fps

 

I was able to try loads up to 39.0g without any pressure issues. I figure that would be running just short of 3000pfs but i felt the consistency in groups was better with 38.7g.

 

I also tried the Lovex SO70 with the 123g MK and Scener, accuracy was good but speeds well down compared to N140. My max load was 41.6g (I literally couldn't fit more in the case) showed no pressure but speed was around 2660fps. That's well short of what I was getting with the N140.

I had hoped that SO70 would be a good (and cheaper) alternative to H4350 but I don't think it has as high an energy rating. Varget has a very high energy for a single base powder (thanks to Laurie for all his research) and I wonder if H4350 is similar to Varget in that respect. In any case, it might give good accuracy, it just doesn't have the velocity I think.

 

I'll be sticking with N140; great velocity, zero pressure, single base so I'm not toasting my barrel like some others are with the high energy powders, it's highly available compared to the US powders and cheaper too. What's not to like?!

 

Best of luck with your load development.

[Swarovski1]

I chronied 139gr scenars and 140gr amax loads yesterday evening.theyre both running on 39grs of RS60 and they are comfortably doing 2900fps

[Swarovski1]

I am going to check the 140gr amax over 40grs of h4350 load again to see if that has got faster.last time I checked it was 2800 fps and the 39grs of RS60 were doing 2813fps.i would of said the barrel has got faster.i did pull one of the RS60 loads to double check powder as I was shocked to the fps and I weighed powder charge 3 times and it weighed different everytime but only by tiny amounts.need some better scales me thinks

[Swarovski1]

Just checked and the first 39grs RS60 140gr amax load was 2827fps was fastest not 2813fps.only 60 odd fps increase then to take me into the 2900 fps barrier.also the 140gr amax load were doing between 2894 and 2899fps.give or take a few fps there doing 2900 fps.

The 40grs of h4350 amax load was doing 2800 fps.gonna make a few up just to see if barrel has got faster

[Morse]

The best 5 round group thus far was put up by Baldie on the deviant thread (for picture as I am struggling to get pics off my laptop on here). Having made a load of these up the Mean MV was 2889fps. Seem to work well and is consistent off 36gr N140. Not toasting the barrel and it seems consistent with groups of .4xx" edge to edge 5 rounds all day long (well 10 groups) and with the odd one like in the picture. Now the brass is fire formed I think it will go smaller but I fear that I am now the weak link in this setup!!

 

Thank you everyone for your help on the threat. Good shooting!

[Catch-22]

Nicely done. I did see that picture Baldie put up and was shocked. Now all you Hoyt's do it keep replicating it

 

I see your barrel is 27". 36.0g of N140 getting nearly 2900 - that's an excellent return. Mine is a 24" barrel so finding I need to up to 38.0g to match your velocity. Still not toasting the barrel though.

 

Hopefully you'll get more than 3000 rounds of peak accuracy from that barrel if you don't machine gun it.