6.5 creemoor cases

[Swarovski1]

Does anyone know if lapua intend on making 6.5 creedmoor cases, norma and nosler stuff is silly money, I like to have 300 to 500 to rotate, it may put me off going to the creedmoor and stick with the good old 308

[Shuggy]

I would say doubtful, as it's probably too close to the 6.5x47. But who knows, the Creedmoor seems to be becoming very popular in the US and maybe the market forces will become too great for Lapua to ignore.

 

The irony is that the 6.5x47 has a US reputation for pricey brass in comparison to the Creedmoor. Here the situation is reversed with Hornady at 90p a case, but hard to find; and Norma Creedmoor at £1.20 a case. Whereas the 6.5x47 is easy to find and is available at under a pound a case.

[Scotch_egg]

What gets me is prime ammunition is made with nosler brass and Norma 130gr bullets. This ammunition is made by RWS and retailed in the USA for $25.95. That's less than the brass costs here. I just don't get it. http://www.primeammo.com/6-5mm-creedmoor-hpbt-130gr.html

[Swarovski1]

Thats because we get ripped off over here, what else can it be....

[Shuggy]

No, it's just simple economics. The US market is utterly vast, which allows economies of scale.

[Grum87]

I suspect it's probably more to do with economies of scale - the US is a huge market, many of which won't be interested in loading their own. They want to go into Walmart or any big store, and buy a rifle. And then they want to be able to buy their ammo in the same sort of stores - so it'll sell, by the bucket load. No bother. So importers can buy it by the millions, and get a decent price on it....

 

Over here, I'd bet most 6.5CM shooters are homeloaders. Some might buy a box or two of factory to generate brass, or to compare to.....but after that, the repeat sale isn't there. So importers might import a few thousand, at a greater cost, and that greater cost gets handed down to us.

[Grum87]

No, it's just simple economics. The US market is utterly vast, which allows economies of scale.

Beat me to it....

[ashcroft]

There's quite a lot of threads on US forums 're Lapua making creedmoor brass, the answer thus far is......jog on please.

[Laurie]

There's quite a lot of threads on US forums 're Lapua making creedmoor brass, the answer thus far is......jog on please.

 

 

The main reason is to use small primer Lapua Palma brass. With it, the Creedmoor can produce some startling MVs and still retain good case life. Some people are saying it's a simple run 308 cases through a Creedmoor FL sizer die, but the Creedmoor is a shorter case with the shoulder further back than on either the 308 or 260 Rem. I'm assured by one who has a lot of experience in this is that a four stage re-form is needed:

 

1) Resize with a .300 Savage FL sizer to push the shoulder back and change the shoulder angle from 20 to 30-deg

 

2) Trim and neck-turn

 

3) Resize in 6.5 Creedmoor die

 

4) Anneal neck and shoulder

 

If you don't neck turn, necks are too thick with a risk of loaded rounds having over-tight or non-existent clearance in the chamber. If you don't anneal, shoulders split on one or two firings.

 

 

Reforming 308 to 260 Rem is a much simpler process, and many New Zealand / Aussie 260 and 7mm-08 shooters routinely use 308 Palma brass reporting very good results allied to higher MVs than can be sensibly obtained with standard brass.

 

I would be VERY surprised if Lapua starts making Creedmoor cases at least in the short term. If it does, then there is no future for 6.5X47 Lapua and the company has invested a great deal of time, money and corporate ego into this design.

[Grum87]

 

 

 

 

Reforming 308 to 260 Rem is a much simpler process, and many New Zealand / Aussie 260 and 7mm-08 shooters routinely use 308 Palma brass reporting very good results allied to higher MVs than can be sensibly obtained with standard brass.

 

 

 

What sort of gains could one see from going down this route?

 

I'd thought of it before, but written the idea off due it'd mean yet more components to lay around....especially when I now no longer have anything else running small rifle primers....

 

Or is the real bonus in being able to run what would be considered top-end velocity/pressure wise in a normal large primered case, while retaining sensible brass life with the small primer, rather than just gaining a few FPS?

[Laurie]

On prices, as well as Shuggy's and Grum's points on economies of scale, it's also about what the market will bear / competitors' prices. have a look at AmmoSeek listings:

 

http://ammoseek.com/ammo/6.5mm-creedmoor

 

Hornady monolithic copper bulleted ammo aside, you can buy Hornady AMax 120/140 loads, Winchester Match, and Federal 6.5 Creedmoor ammo for under $30/ carton and from a large number of suppliers, under $25. It wouldn't matter who made your ammo, you'd struggle to sell 'ordinary' Creedmoor in the USA at $30 or $40 a box with this sort of competition amongst retailers. That's before you get into Midway-USA, Bass Pro and Cabela's making special offers.

 

However, for something a bit more special, Bryan Litz's newly introduced ABM 260 Rem 'Match Ready' and 'Mission Ready' ammo, it's more than double at around $51 / carton of 20. (ABM doesn't do the Creedmoor.)

[Laurie]

 

What sort of gains could one see from going down this route?

 

Or is the real bonus in being able to run what would be considered top-end velocity/pressure wise in a normal large primered case, while retaining sensible brass life with the small primer, rather than just gaining a few FPS?

 

 

Good question on point 1. If 308 Win is a guide, another 50 or 100 fps, but the 260 Rem uses slower burning powders than 308 and generally runs at higher fill-ratios, so it might not be possible to get enough extra powder in anyway. (That excludes our dense and high-energy, but barrel burning friend Re17 / RS60, of course.)

 

Point 2 may be the more valuable one to many.

 

I have an F-Open 7mm-08 which needs more load development. So far, it won't produce high enough MVs with Berger's 168gn .284" VLD allied to the right levels of group size despite being very long-throated (2.97" COAL). I have done a box of re-formed Palma brass which was a straight resize, and as it's a minimum SAAMI chamber, a mild neck turn to ensure clearances are sufficient. Initial loads shot fine, but I still have to find time to do some serious development with it and see just what the small primer brass will take and what performance it'll provide.

[Grum87]

I'd be interested to hear the results...

 

I'm tempted to give it a go, however it has to be said, I haven't found .260rem to be much of a slouch so far. With the added advantage of being 308 based and dead easy to make brass for. I've found locally sourced once fired Federal 7-08 brass runs really well so far.

 

I do question for what I'm doing with it, if an extra 50fps or so would really warrant the expense though.....but I love to tinker.....

[Swarovski1]

Laurie.not only your superior knowledge is astounding you write it so it so easy to understand.

[Swarovski1]

I've been thinking creedmoor for quite a while now to replace my 308 as it seems to be a good performer with the 140 grainers.i always was under the impression that the 6.5x47 was better suited to 130 grainers.ive found it difficult to change my mind set on the 308.i just rate it.ive found it great.not sure if I would be disappointed with a 6.5x47

.will I be....?

[Scotch_egg]

No, it's just simple economics. The US market is utterly vast, which allows economies of scale.

I suspect it's probably more to do with economies of scale - the US is a huge market, many of which won't be interested in loading their own. They want to go into Walmart or any big store, and buy a rifle. And then they want to be able to buy their ammo in the same sort of stores - so it'll sell, by the bucket load. No bother. So importers can buy it by the millions, and get a decent price on it....

 

Over here, I'd bet most 6.5CM shooters are homeloaders. Some might buy a box or two of factory to generate brass, or to compare to.....but after that, the repeat sale isn't there. So importers might import a few thousand, at a greater cost, and that greater cost gets handed down to us.

I realise it is economy of scale. The issue I have is why can't the UK piggy back the production of this European made ammunition. If it was made in the USA I could understand the increased costs of importing.

[Grum87]

I guess as Laurie says, it is somewhat what the market will bare. Of people show stock will move at a higher price by buyng it, suppliers will charge it.

 

If you want to talk about rip off, Daniel Valmont was trying to sell CM brass at 150 quid a hundred.....

[Scotch_egg]

Daniel Valmont was trying to sell CM brass at 150 quid a hundred.....

Was that on April 1st?

[Grum87]

No no, weeks ago.

 

But this is the same chap that tried to sell a pair of No4 Mk1(T)'s(miss-matching without transit chest no less), for 12k.....not for the pair. Each.....

[Swarovski1]

Will the 6.5x47 replace my 308 or not.will I be disapointed with it.

[Grum87]

I doubt very much you will be disappointed by either .260rem, 6.5x47 or 6.5creed from a performance point of view.

 

Each has their plus points and negatives, the two latter being brass.....x47 less so, but you'll still pay for it

 

You obviously know yourself the advantage of 6.5 projectiles over 308 in terms of BC and resulting benefits with wind, etc.

[MJR]

Will a 47 replace a 308?Well yes and no. It has an advantage in the wind but can't shoot heavier bullets if that's what you want.

I shot a local range day yesterday with a 308. We started at 300 YDS and after 6 shots the butts crew reported a delay whilst they refaced the centre as I shot it out. would a 47 do it better? We moved back to 500yds and the 308 held vertical very well but I started to get blown to the outside of the v bull and some into the bull. That's probably more to do with my wind reading but it's where a 47 would give the advantage and probably place more v bulls. I shot alongside a guy with a full on FTR 308 pushing berger 155.5s 170fps faster than I shoot the 155 sierras and he held the v bull better and is obviously a decent shot.

So really it boils down to your application, type of and use of the gun.

[Swarovski1]

Just had a quick look on the bal cal and a140gr amax 6.5 cal bullet doing 2700fps and a 155gr smk doing 2870fps theyre is a a 2 inch difference approximately in a 10mph full value wind at 500yds, not much innit

[activeviii]

 

308 lapua case do not take much effort to put so creedmoor.

To give an idea I quickly did these. All I used was lanoline on the neck, into the Lee full lenght die taken in one steady push on the handle. I didn't even bother trimming neck lwck to start with but if you knock off 1.5mm off the 308 case it leaves less to mess with after.

 

308 case

6.5 creedmoor before lenght trim

6.5 creedmoor before neck thickness and annealing.

[Swarovski1]

Ive got around 500 federal 308 cases if you wanna buy them, that would see your barrel out