Reloading problem

[Elwood]

Well things were going fine reloading for the 22BR until I prepped some new Lapua 6BR brass, now I'm getting all kinds of weird stuff happening.

 

 

 

Firstly, when I seat a bullet I have some resistance as the arm comes done, more than I think there should be, also the resistance is there on the top of the up stroke. I can clearly see where the bullet finishes in the neck with a pronounced line, where the brass has been shaved which I hope you can see in the photo. It got so bad that I had to neck turn the cases, but the resistance and line are still there but no where near as noticeable.

 

I have managed to collapse the shoulder on two cartridges with what I presumed to be to much pressure trying to seat the bullet, but on reflection after a phone call it could have been that the die wasn't set up properly (Forster). I decided to dismantle a few rounds to see what was happening and was quite shocked to see how much copper had been removed during the seating process, the photo gives you an idea of the stripping, but I would say it's worse than the photo suggests.

 

And lastly, most of the brass that I have made can't be picked up by the extractor when it's chambered, although I haven't been through the whole lot, I would estimate that 7 out of 10 can't be extracted, of course for most just tilting the barrel up slightly means they slide out.

 

Any thoughts please

 

The only thing I can think of with the seating problem is that there's not enough clearance between the walls in the die which doesn't allow the necks walls to be pushed out when the bullet is seated??

[Elwood]

Another thought was that perhaps the internal diametre of the neck it to small, which would give resistance and strip the bullet.

 

Neck dimensions are

A fired case is 0.251

A loaded case is 0.250

A resized case is 0.249

 

I should also add that this problem became much more pronounced with 55 grain bullets, before I was using 52 grain heads without to much bother.

[Elwood]

I would say you need to anneal your brass as necking down and then resizing will make the necks hard as hell,I had the same problem with my 7mm/300 wsm

 

I hear what you are saying Pete, but it's just one pass through a 22BR FL die, can it work harden that quick?

[Redfox]

Are you chamfering the case necks and is it the last thing you do? ready for reloading.

Redfox

[Elwood]

Are you chamfering the case necks and is it the last thing you do? ready for reloading.

Redfox

 

It's the second to last thing I do, I normally run a brush through the neck as my last stage.

[TC]

I just had a similar problem using a Forster seating die in .308 with 155 Scenars.

 

I had the die set too deep in the press and it was crimping the neck resulting in huge neck tension and very similar marking on the ogive.

 

The setup seems to be the reverse of my Redding comp dies. As I recall the setup method for the Forster is to screw in until the sprung section is just touching then IN a further 1/4 to 1/2 inch. I can dig out the instructions if you don't have yours.

 

Worth checking.

 

TC

[Andrew]

I hear what you are saying Pete, but it's just one pass through a 22BR FL die, can it work harden that quick?

 

I think not. I agree with your theory that the neck seater may be too tight. Look at your dimensions. Between a fired case and a resized case = .002" Giving .001" for expansion that isn't much leeway. What is the wall thickness?

 

A more worry some condition is that you can't pick up a case with the extractor. When you necked these down did you do it progressively? Checking for bolt closure along he way? I wonder if in resizing you haven't diddled with the cartridge's headspace.~Andrew

[Vermincinerator]

Elwood,

Your problem is to much neck tension caused by your necks being to thick, on necking down to .22, all the extra brass flows into the internal diameter, so this extra brass needs to be removed by either inside neck reaming or oitside neck turning.

The standard spec for loaded round neck diameter of the .22BR is .246" which is .004" smaller then you are getting.

Simple sums tells me that your neck thickness is .013" so if you neck turn your cases untill the neck is .011" this will give you the specified loaded round diameter of .246 and if you size the case so that it measures .243" before bullet seating, i will eat my hat if it does not cure your problem.

 

Ian

[Elwood]

I think not. I agree with your theory that the neck seater may be too tight. Look at your dimensions. Between a fired case and a resized case = .002" Giving .001" for expansion that isn't much leeway. What is the wall thickness?

 

A more worry some condition is that you can't pick up a case with the extractor. When you necked these down did you do it progressively? Checking for bolt closure along he way? I wonder if in resizing you haven't diddled with the cartridge's headspace.~Andrew

 

Sorry Andrew I do not have the equipment to measure neck wall thickness.

 

I necked them in one pass and the FL die hasn't been altered from the last 50 cases that I did, although these show a light ring where the bullet ends they all extracted fine. I have measured the headspace between the new cases and the old and they all come out pretty much even.

 

TC, thanks, I think I will have one more go setting the die up, I'm sure the instructions are here, some where!( I never did like Forster )

[Elwood]

Elwood,

Your problem is to much neck tension caused by your necks being to thick, on necking down to .22, all the extra brass flows into the internal diameter, so this extra brass needs to be removed by either inside neck reaming or oitside neck turning.

The standard spec for loaded round neck diameter of the .22BR is .246" which is .004" smaller then you are getting.

Simple sums tells me that your neck thickness is .013" so if you neck turn your cases untill the neck is .011" this will give you the specified loaded round diameter of .246 and if you size the case so that it measures .243" before bullet seating, i will eat my hat if it does not cure your problem.

 

Ian

 

Ian, I may be barking up the wrong tree or just barking mad, my chamber isn't a tight neck but it's as tight as it can be. So wouldn't removing the brass from the outside be detrimental to accuracy? if so then surely inside neck reaming is the way forward, alas, like many things, I know sod all about inside neck reaming. But I'm willing to learn.

[Vermincinerator]

Regarding your other problem and expanding on what andrew said, if you necked your cases down to the same neck/shoulder juncture of the 6mm case your headspace is going to be approx .010" to short.

The 6mmBR case is 1.260" from the base to the neck/shoulder juncture and the .22"BR is 1.270"

The best way to ensure that you case is headspacing properly is to neck down leaving a false shoulder of the original 6mm diameter which corresponds to the 1.270" dimension or gives you slightl resistance on closing the bolt on one of your necked down cases.

 

Ian

[TC]

TC, thanks, I think I will have one more go setting the die up, I'm sure the instructions are here, some where!( I never did like Forster )

 

I'll happily scan and email mine if you can't find them.

 

Having first set mine up as per a Redding die I ended up backing the Forster about half an inch out from the press when set up as per the Forster instructions. I'd spent god know how long measuring cases, trying to buy larger bushes , ordering a neck turner etc before finding this and then kicking myself for not having read the instructions.

 

Obviously your loading is way more complex than my .308 but I hope the answer to your problem is as simple as mine.

 

TC

[foxing2night]

Hi mate,,

I would be very interested to know what your case wall thickness is ???

 

As has been said your diementions are very close .002 +1 each side sounds good to me,,

 

But thinking aloud,,,, If you take more of a cut off the neck,,This should make a big differance to the neck tension????? Thinner brass Or use the next size button up,,,,,

 

Do you use a sizing button in your die?? or is it a set size

I have had die,s honed out in the past, nt in the body, but just the neck,,,

These two things do make a differance,,,,

 

Looking at your pic,s,,, it does seem that there is way to much resistance as you are seating your bullets,,,

 

With out seeing your loading,, it is hard to say????

 

Hope that this is a help F2n

[Alycidon]

I presume neck wall thickness is the same between the old brass and the new stuff?, have you measured it with a proper neck micrometer?. My K&M neck turner does cut to different thicknesses depending on what temperature it is at. Colder takes more material off, hotter less. Been there myself on that one , got several U/S cases as a result. Used to keep my tool in a cold garage then moved it onto a hot house to do a few and wondered why it cut more off the first 2 or 3 than when I put it away.

 

Strikes me the problem is either the inside of the case neck is to small or as someone else suggested maybe not inside chamfered enough or the 55 gr bullets you are loading have a slightly larger OD than the 52s. .0005 would be enough to cause issues, I have two models of 6mm match bullets, ods are .2430 & .2435.

 

What is the inside diameter of a case neck ready for loading and the outside diameter of the bullet. No they should not work harden in one pass.

 

A

[Vermincinerator]

Elwood,

By choosing a wildcat which needs case forming you have dropped your self into the realms of advanced handloading

In order for you to fully realise and enjoy your 22BR neck turning and tailoring your neck diameters to suit your chambers are skills that need to be mastered.

Realistically you should be using some kind of interchangable neck bushing die, this will enable you to set the neck tension to suit both your chamber and your bullet diameter, enabling you to fully utilise the potential of this excellent little cartridge.

 

Ian.

[Elwood]

Elwood,

By choosing a wildcat which needs case forming you have dropped your self into the realms of advanced handloading

In order for you to fully realise and enjoy your 22BR neck turning and tailoring your neck diameters to suit your chambers are skills that need to be mastered.

Realistically you should be using some kind of interchangable neck bushing die, this will enable you to set the neck tension to suit both your chamber and your bullet diameter, enabling you to fully utilise the potential of this excellent little cartridge.

 

Ian.

 

Ian, I actually chose the 22BR as it was supposed to be one of the easiest wildcat calibers to load for, Hah! Anyway after giving it some thought I think you have hit the nail on the head and my inside neck diameter is to small,unfortunately I do not have the equipment to measure the walls ( Add to Xmas list ) so I thinkl I will tackle this problem first. Could you tell me exactly what I need to ream the inside of the necks, I have just looked on Sinclair's and can't see anything to do with inside neck reamers.

 

To follow on from your statement of using bushing dies, which I normally do, the Forster die was included with the rifle. If I used a bushing die I can't see how that helps, as the brass still has to flow some where, I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't see how it makes a difference.

 

I suppose I could just say sod it and stick to the 52 grain Amax, but it's kinda hard when the 55's shoot into the mid 1's

[Elwood]

Mr Vermincinerator, you utter bloody hero, I salute you.

 

I trimmed the necks down to 0.247 and the 55 grain heads positively glided in the necks , I used my kinetic hammer to get the bullet back out and not one scratch on it. Very odd how it all worked perfectly for the 52 graiin heads!!!!

I think I do need to get some Redding bushing dies in order to keep the correct neck tension.

 

Right now for the head space bit, the measurements are a fired case with primer removed is 1.165, a loaded case which extracts is 1.162 and the new lapua brass is 1.160, so it's slightly under. The question is, is it safe to use if it doesn't extract? obviously next time I will have to pay more attention to head space.

[Andrew]

If I can jump in...

It is safe if you seat to an OAL that will allow the bullet to kiss the rifling. This will support the case; forcing it back onto the bolt face while supporting the forward end. On firing the shoulder will blow outwards to the chamber dimensions and you can load normally from then on.

 

As to your neck tension. An easier and perhaps cheaper method of controlling neck tension is to adjust the diameter of the expander ball. If you have a machinist buddy that could turn you a few different diameter balls (Of water hardening drill rod. Then you could easily harden them up when you found the right diameter for your rifle) you could play around with neck tension without having to line Redding's pockets. That is, of course, if you are OK with expander balls. Some folks aren't in BR-type guns and prefer to size right to the desired diameter and decap on a different operation. Happy shooting. ~Andrew

[Ronin]

Andrew

 

good advice if this is indeed the cause of the extraction problem - seat the bullets so that they into the lands, this forces the case up against the bolt face and once fired, you should not have any extraction issues.

 

Ian (Elwood) - I note you mention you havent the tool to measure neck wall thick ness - you do - the same dial calipers you use to measure the seating depth and neck diameters!

 

Example

 

Diameter at case neck (loaded) = .250" -bullet diameter (.224") = .026"

 

Divide .026 by two - this gives you .013" and the thickness of the neck wall.

 

 

 

 

So if your newly neck turned cases now measure .247" loaded with the .224 bullet your neck wall thickness will be .0115" (eleven and a half thousandths if an inch)

 

 

Also sound advice inparted that you need to cut slightly into the case neck / shoulder junction when neck turning to avoid rim or dohnut forming internally at the base of the case neck - which will cause havok when seating bullets in the future.

 

 

For most cartridges I load for, I have removed the expander ball in my re-size die (or ground it down) so it doesnt do anything - I still decap in the sixeing operation.

 

If you think about it, the case neck is expanded nicely on ignition, there;'s no need to over work the brass with the xpander ball

 

 

Good thread, lots of useful info and everyone gettin along, normal service is resumed - sweet

[baldie]

I find using motor mica on the case neck brush helps, prior to seating too, and it doesnt affect powder etc.

[Elwood]

I would just like to say thanks to everyone who had some input, despite some of the bickering that goes on the UKV is top class website where I doubt any question would ever go unanswered.

 

 

One thing I must remember to do in the future when prepping new brass is to check the head space, I just naturally assumed it would be the same if I were using the same make of brass and nothing else changed.

[Alycidon]

A bushing die will allow you to insert different sizes bushes to alter (usually 1 thou at a time) the neck tension you are putting on the bullet.

 

On your barrell the builder should have marked the neck size, failing that ask the builder what the neck size is. Loaded round neck diameter is usually reconned to be between 1 and 2 (.001 & .002) thou under chamber diameter for a tight neck. My PPC has a .270 neck in the barrel, from memory I am using a .267 bush in the resize die. My neck case walls are .0127 thick giving a loaded diameter of .2684 when using a bullet with an OD of .2430 (.2430 +.0127+.0127= .2684) and .2689 with the fatter (.2435) Barts Ultras.

 

If you post the neck size we can advise a suitable bushing once we know the case neck wall thickness, you dont want to take to much off, that will result in shorter life. If you need a case measuring that is not a problem, I have the gear, so do quite a few here.

 

You are also talking about head space, do you need advice/help on setting up the shoulder or full length die?.

 

A

[Vermincinerator]

Glad to have been of help mate

 

Ian.

[foxing2night]

Well mate,,

Now it looks like you are getting into this reloading!!!!!( Advanced)

 

One,, You do not need to ream the inside of the neck!!!! What you should do is use the right mandrel to exspand your case and then take a cut off the neck,,, Hard to exsplain,, But here go,s,,, sounds like your die has sized down to much???? So this should enable you to use the correct sizing mandrel,, This will iron out any dimples in the brass and put it to the right size,, Then neck turn to the diementions that suit your chamber neck size

 

This done,, assemble a round and take measurements Example my ppc 6mm???

 

Case in the raw state, put the 6mm mandrel in press lube mandrel,, exspand case to 6mm dead on,,

Case wall measures 15 thuo trim to 11,, load bullet = 268 in case, internal size is a 271 neck = 1 1/2 each side!!!!

Hey presto away you go,,,

Problems,

New brass is more elastic than brass that has been fired a few times (springs back further)

This can make seating tight????

 

Certain bullets Have differant diementions ,,, Every time you use a differant make!!! Check the diameter ,,,, Very important??? Also check for a presure ring at the base of some custem bullets

 

Enjoy the ride mate!!!! Wild cat loading is fantastic????

 

Hope this helps??? If you want to talk pm me and i will give you my number!!!

 

All the best darrel