Neck turning new brass

[gunner]

hello lads and lasses , want to know from someone who neck turns there brass , iv just tried 20 cases for the first time alltho iv been reloading for about 4 years iv never done it before ! it looks promising from the group today compared to the non turned .

iv been using nosler custom brass since december-2012 . starting to get split necks so iv bought lapua again !

 

Now i havnt fired any of them yet , so do i fire form them then neck size or FL size ? iv seen the vid on how to neck turn and the post on here about it . The cases are 223 but my caliber is 223 ackley so i have to fire form them ! im also not sure weather to turn just into the shoulder or not ? The 20 cut and tested today i cut about 80 percent of the neck ! i know if im to cut into the neck they will need trimming to exact length - no probs have a wilson trimmer ! basicly how would you do it? Thanks .. Tim ..

[1967spud]

youre better to

 

neck turn partial cut

fireform

then return neck to finished size that way you even out sidess in the shoulder/ neck area during fire form

[gunner]

hi Ronny , how much did you cut down the neck out of interest ?Or did you cut slightly in to shoulder? Did your 223 ai have a tight chamber or not , i know mines 254 , wish i had a tighter neck as can now cut to desired thickness ! On the next build it will for sure ! cheers for input .. Tim ..

[gunner]

youre better to

 

neck turn partial cut

fireform

then return neck to finished size that way you even out sidess in the shoulder/ neck area during fire form

hi spud , do you mean take off just a slight amount ? fire then finish cut the necks again?

[sporting rifles]

I have been neck turning for over 10 years in factory rifles and custom rifles it makes a hell of a difference.

just turn the lot in one go cutting slightly into the shoulder,then fireform.job done

dont forget to de burr before expanding and make sure you don't over heat your cutter use plenty of lube I use spray on case lube it works a treat,if you havnt got a fitted chamber just take off the bare minimum just to uniform the brass.

[1967spud]

hi spud , do you mean take off just a slight amount ? fire then finish cut the necks again?

yes exactly that

[sporting rifles]

yes exactly that

Spud

one question "why"

[gunner]

I have been neck turning for over 10 years in factory rifles and custom rifles it makes a hell of a difference.

just turn the lot in one go cutting slightly into the shoulder,then fireform.job done

dont forget to de burr before expanding and make sure you don't over heat your cutter use plenty of lube I use spray on case lube it works a treat,if you havnt got a fitted chamber just take off the bare minimum just to uniform the brass.

Thanks for advise its gunna be a pain in the ass doing it but goin on the group today in gusty conditions compared to the non turned was sweeet ! 0.7" x5 shots @200yds

[sporting rifles]

Thanks for advise its gunna be a pain in the ass doing it but goin on the group today in gusty conditions compared to the non turned was sweeet ! 0.7" x5 shots @200yds

once the cutter is set it don't take long I presume your doing them in a drill held in a vice ?? you will also find turned brass will lower your SD,dont forget to cut into the shoulder as when you fireform it will stop brass migration

I was shooting .3 at 500 yards a couple of weeks ago

[gunner]

once the cutter is set it don't take long I presume your doing them in a drill held in a vice ?? you will also find turned brass will lower your SD,dont forget to cut into the shoulder as when you fireform it will stop brass migration

I was shooting .3 at 500 yards a couple of weeks ago

i understand , the dreaded doughnut , yeah got a drill set up for it, but not in a vise? hand holding the cutter in one hand and drill in other ? thats ok int it ? and using imperial wax !

[kent]

I found it didn't make any difference in various std cut chambers what so ever, obviously in some custom tight cut its essential. a lot of hand loading procedures effect the mind more than the ammo and that can make a big difference. Once your mind convinces your trigger finger its a forgone conclusion

[gbal]

I found it didn't make any difference in various std cut chambers what so ever, obviously in some custom tight cut its essential. a lot of hand loading procedures effect the mind more than the ammo and that can make a big difference. Once your mind convinces your trigger finger its a forgone conclusion[/quote

 

 

Your first sentence is generally what is found in standard chambers.

Removing doubts is usually good,I.e. you believe you have done all you can,no excuses.But ,alas,it does not quite work the other way- the intrinsic accuracy factors cannot be exceeded by expectations! But confidence-when justified- helps approach the intrinsic accuracy.

No free lunches,and no positive foregone conclusions,though negative self fulfilling prophecies are possible

And of course one flukey 3shot group can overshadow lots that are more modest.The laws of physics ,rationality,logic and probability don't extend reliably to the average human psychology!!

Gbal

[sporting rifles]

 

My .223ai was standard spec, no neck turning required.

 

I turned the neck thicknesses down to 12 or 13 thou if I remember right, I removed just enough to clean the necks up. I had a 40 degree cutter and turning tool which I purchased from sinclair ( http://ukvarminting.com/forums/topic/17458-sinclair-nt-1500-neck-turning-tool-kit-with-additional-ackley-cutter/ ) and turned the cases right down to blend in to the shoulder. I used to be a toolmaker many years ago so I am very familar with using hand tools to tight tolerances, I made a really good job of the necks managing to get consistency that really surprised me. The only problem was that when I had gone to the great length of turning the necks it made very little difference to the groups.

 

I read a very interesting article by Jason Baney (Former World Open Heavy Gun Grand Champion), in the article he spoke very candidly about some of the things he had wasted his time doing over the years in an attempt to improve his groups, at the top of the list was case neck turning. He summed it up quite well by suggesting that you would do a lot better selling your neck turning tools and spending the money on Lapua brass.

 

My experiences have shown that groups sizes are affected a lot more by;

 

• Good quality barrel.
• Good gunsmithing.
• Careful consistent load development.
• Powder selection.
• Bullet selection.

Neck turning doesn't even register on my list to be honest, I tried it and it had not benefit over standard Lapua brass, it may improve groups over cheap brass but it showed no benefits for me over Lapua.

you say it did nothing for you,I find this very hard to believe as any operation to uniform a component will have its advatages,you may not have seen this on your group but at what distance did you try it over and did you try it through a chrono as I know for a fact it can make a huge difference

[sporting rifles]

I tried it at ranges up to 400yds, it made no difference whatsoever to my groups. At the ranges I shoot at I found there was absolutely no benefit turning the necks on my cases. The wind and my need to take a quick shot will have a lot more impact on my accuracy than neck turning.

 

As I don't shoot 1000yd targets I cannot cast a qualified argument as to whether it is worthwhile or not, as an outsider looking in with experience varminting at extended ranges I think neck turning is a lot more to do with individuals state of mind. (They genuinely believe they have to do it.)

 

Can you qualify your arguement as to how effective neck turning is with proven documented facts ???

yes mate I have facts neck turning improves loads,I recently was halping a mate to develop his 6.5x47 using 100 gr Noslers the rifle shot .2 at 100 yards and produced a 0.975 group at 500 yards,very accurate in anyone language,the problem we had was the SD was high which we couldn't understand,my SD was 7 but this was with a different calibre,after we went through the loading process the only difference besie the calibers was neck turning.

we put 10 rounds through the chrono logged the details then used the extact same cases turned them re laoded them and the SD went from 15 to 7

so a marked improvement by neck turning,I also had a 270 wsm I loaded for which was putting the odd shot out the group,neck turning sorted that problem out,again another fact

I could go on and on throughtout the 10 odd years I have been turning but the answer will be same,you mat or may not get an inproovment in a group but the overall picture is better,and that's what matters

by the way Iam not arguing just stating facts I have found from years of reloading

[sporting rifles]

I think the differences we have found are more to do with our shooting disciplines and the ranges we shoot at.

no mate the chrono dosent lie,whilst turning brass may not show you a better group that could be down to your reloading or the quality of the rilfe being used but it can make an improovment and that's a fact either in a custom rifle or a factory stick,consistancy is key take away any variable and you get inproovments

[gbal]

yes mate I have facts neck turning improves loads,I recently was halping a mate to develop his 6.5x47 using 100 gr Noslers the rifle shot .2 at 100 yards and produced a 0.975 group at 500 yards,very accurate in anyone language,the problem we had was the SD was high which we couldn't understand,my SD was 7 but this was with a different calibre,after we went through the loading process the only difference besie the calibers was neck turning.we put 10 rounds through the chrono logged the details then used the extact same cases turned them re laoded them and the SD went from 15 to 7so a marked improvement by neck turning,I also had a 270 wsm I loaded for which was putting the odd shot out the group,neck turning sorted that problem out,again another factI could go on and on throughtout the 10 odd years I have been turning but the answer will be same,you mat or may not get an inproovment in a group but the overall picture is better,and that's what mattersby the way Iam not arguing just stating facts I have found from years of reloading

 

Ok. .2 seems excellent without neck turning.What was it after neck turning?

I understand SD is down ,though no figures are given for Sd without neck turning,so whether this is significant can only be shown by improved group,or reduced vertical(but it was already .2,so improvement is going to be close to measurement error etc.)

No way to tell without the facts-but if the terminal accuracy or precision isn't significantly better,what does "the overall picture is better" mean,other than the important observation that they are never worse,if indeed that is so?

Potentially interesting,though.

Gbal

[gbal]

no mate the chrono dosent lie,whilst turning brass may not show you a better group that could be down to your reloading or the quality of the rilfe being used but it can make an improovment and that's a fact either in a custom rifle or a factory stick,consistancy is key take away any variable and you get inproovments

no mate the chrono dosent lie,whilst turning brass may not show you a better group that could be down to your reloading or the quality of the rilfe being used but it can make an improovment and that's a fact either in a custom rifle or a factory stick,consistancy is key take away any variable and you get inproovments

 

Not quite if you are pushing the precision of measurement,as R says.

To repeat,what does " make an improvement" mean if it is NOT in precision and accuracy.

Note it's reducing variation that matters,and neck turning might just introduce another one,unless every case is identically done,as ever within the measurable parameters.

And believing you have done everything,can in itself improve groups,as you subconsciously take more care,as you have no get out excuse clause! It's a complex,if fascinating business- the good news is that groups of .2 are a good place to start improvements!

 

 

Good luck...

 

Gbal

 

[sporting rifles]

Not quite if you are pushing the precision of measurement,as R says. To repeat,what does " make an improvement" mean if it is NOT in precision and accuracy. Note it's reducing variation that matters,and neck turning might just introduce another one,unless every case is identically done,as ever within the measurable parameters. And believing you have done everything,can in itself improve groups,as you subconsciously take more care,as you have no get out excuse clause! It's a complex,if fascinating business- the good news is that groups of .2 are a good place to start improvements! Good luck... Gbal

nothing to do with the subconscious mate facts and figures are what matters,in my case we have the facts and the figures.neck turning makes an inproovment and that's a fact

[Tuck]

You've found it an improvement SR. Please dont think in been argumentative but just because you have found it to make an improvement with the rifles you have tryed this with, doesn't mean to say it will have an impact with every rifle surely!!! You use the method and are pleased with it why are you so offended when someone says they believe it to be a waste of time!!! I'm not saying it is but it may make none or very little with some rifles FACT!

[sporting rifles]

You've found it an improvement SR. Please dont think in been argumentative but just because you have found it to make an improvement with the rifles you have tryed this with, doesn't mean to say it will have an impact with every rifle surely!!! You use the method and are pleased with it why are you so offended when someone says they believe it to be a waste of time!!! I'm not saying it is but it may make none or very little with some rifles FACT!

no mate you misunderstand Ronny states he didn't see any difference in accuracy that's fine we didn't either with the 6.5x47 but we did see the SD half so neck turning was an improovment.dont knock something until you try it

I wonder if Ronny ran his loads over a chrono to see if there was any difference ??

I don't see anyone arguing just posting there opinions.

as I said Ive seen quite a bit of difference with turning brass in many rifles,the proof of the pudding is in the end result.

[Tuck]

It's something that does intrest me but I gather its one of those jobs that's easy when you know how! You are right I have never done it but It is something I have thought about but as I don't shoot competition or BR I don't see benefit from it.(for me)

[sporting rifles]

It's something that does intrest me but I gather its one of those jobs that's easy when you know how! You are right I have never done it but It is something I have thought about but as I don't shoot competition or BR I don't see benefit from it.(for me)

I too don't shoot comps or BR but I like to get the best from my reloads,the benefit is knowing you have done all you can to produce the very best ammo for your chosen caliber.

[kent]

no mate you misunderstand Ronny states he didn't see any difference in accuracy that's fine we didn't either with the 6.5x47 but we did see the SD half so neck turning was an improovment.dont knock something until you try it

I wonder if Ronny ran his loads over a chrono to see if there was any difference ??

I don't see anyone arguing just posting there opinions.

as I said Ive seen quite a bit of difference with turning brass in many rifles,the proof of the pudding is in the end result.

you will totally wreck things if you stop turning then, I feel the difference is only apparent if the expanded neck gets tight to the chamber before release of the bullet from case. Obviously pressure will vary if some contact some don't - so depends on your chamber

[1967spud]

yes mate I have facts neck turning improves loads,I recently was halping a mate to develop his 6.5x47 using 100 gr Noslers the rifle shot .2 at 100 yards and produced a 0.975 group at 500 yards,very accurate in anyone language,the problem we had was the SD was high which we couldn't understand,my SD was 7 but this was with a different calibre,after we went through the loading process the only difference besie the calibers was neck turning.

we put 10 rounds through the chrono logged the details then used the extact same cases turned them re laoded them and the SD went from 15 to 7

so a marked improvement by neck turning,I also had a 270 wsm I loaded for which was putting the odd shot out the group,neck turning sorted that problem out,again another fact

I could go on and on throughtout the 10 odd years I have been turning but the answer will be same,you mat or may not get an inproovment in a group but the overall picture is better,and that's what matters

by the way Iam not arguing just stating facts I have found from years of reloading

+1 on this one pete

[1967spud]

I too don't shoot comps or BR but I like to get the best from my reloads,the benefit is knowing you have done all you can to produce the very best ammo for your chosen caliber.

i do and beleive me it makes a big difference at extendded ranges,

 

An accurate rifle is a consistantly shooting rifle

 

one shot one kill does not equate to an accurate rifle but if the rifle can do consistant shot on shot (small groups) time and time again thats an accurate rifle

 

by neck turning you are acheiving several gains at thte same time the biggestbeing shot to shot consitancy along with consistant neck tension gripping the bullet and lowering the run out of each bullet