Cleaning out the copper or not?

[walkabout]

I have been reading a bit on some American sites lately where some top shooters are only cleaning for carbon.

They seem to be saying, once the level of copper builds up it can't get any bigger because future bullets pass

through the barrel.

Also the copper fills any rough machining marks possibly left in the barrel?

I know some sniper teams don't clean because they can't do a cold bore shot and on some longrange courses

you are told only to clean the chamber, so the next day you are on target for your first shot.

Is there anybody on here who only cleans for carbon?

Or is accuracy really effected by copper build up?

 

What do you guys think?

 

Mark

[tackb]

What has worked for you so far ? Do that !

[The Gun Pimp]

I wouldn't agree with that - and neither would any benchrest shooter but, it all depends on what you need/expect from a rifle. Copper will build up and continue to build up - if it's filling up marks in the barrel - wow, you've got a crap barrel.

 

The best investment any shooter can make is a borescope - until you get one, you've no idea as to the state of your barrel.

 

Read our article on borescopes in December's Target Shooter.

[Finman]

I wouldn't agree with that - and neither would any benchrest shooter but, it all depends on what you need/expect from a rifle. Copper will build up and continue to build up - if it's filling up marks in the barrel - wow, you've got a crap barrel.

 

The best investment any shooter can make is a borescope - until you get one, you've no idea as to the state of your barrel.

 

Read our article on borescopes in December's Target Shooter.

 

Admitedly, I don't have the experience of many folk in this forum, but I thought I'd share my experience...I think that whether you clean or not, depends on the barrel rather than an established practice for every rifle you own. To make the point: my 6mmBR puts every round on top of each other up to 35 rounds. After that it needs cleaning (border match 1:9 barrel). My 6.5x55 shoots the first 20-25 shots randomly, there after puts one on top of each other. Dare not clean that one till I really really really need to! (LWalther barrel, 1:8, accounted for 6 deer since I last cleaned it). My 7x57 cares not one iota whether cleaned or not, puts hole on hole whether I just cleaned it or shot 100 rounds through it (PacNor select match 1:8 barrel).

 

so, there is no hard and fast rule in my book...

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[Gunsgobang88]

As all barrels have their own characteristics there are no hard and fast rules on cleaning. However, usually the better the quality of the internal finish (honing, lapping etc.) the less frequent the need for aggresive copper removal. Other factors that can help are tuftriding of barrels, moly and HBN coating. All these reduce friction and fouling.

 

The above refers primarily to hunting and 'tactical' barrels, people at the cutting edge of rifle accuracy such as benchrest have their own problems and solutions,

 

Alan

[Davy]

We have a rifle that we were told specifically not to put any chemicals near, and that was from the rifle/barrel manufacturer, they say copper strip at 1500+ rounds. They also said do not run the barrel in. It shoots OK.

 

Equally my 7mm takes 5 shots to settle down after a clean and dislikes more than 50 rounds through it without cleaning.

[foxing2night]

My old 6ppc barrel would shoot in the same place whether or not it was clean or dirty, the only difference would be the size of the group??, (This is were I would agree with Vince)

 

My 6.5x47 does exactly the same, dirty or clean,, same point of aim and it shoots silly little groups,,,,

 

As Vince stated if your barrel needs a lot of fouling shots then this is were the quality of the barrel shows up,,

 

I have learnt that another sign of a poor barrel is when it takes a lot of patches to get it clean,,,

 

I once had a rws in 222 and that was a bugger, once it was clean it took eight rounds to get it to shoot and after 40 it turned into a shotgun,,,,

 

I would say it is just a case of buy the best barrel and learn it characteristics.

 

No hard fast rules

[Swamp Donkey]

My new (to me) 243 was shooting ok at .7" when I got it, but I decided to give it a darned good clean, de-coppering, de-carbon etc, the patches all came out pretty clean from the start so I was thinking I was wasting time, then I shot it again, same conditions, same load, .241" group from cold.

But, in all fairness, Moa or better is plenty good enough from this rifle for my uses, so will try just cleaning the carbon for now and keep a check on how it's shooting.

[taylor]

I always take a clean rifle to a match , I know it goes of the boil after so many rounds , keep it clean to get the best from it accuracy wise

Maby not so important on a stalking rifle were accuracy isn't so noticeable

Once your barrel is on its last legs you notice it takes a good few rounds to dirty up and shoot good again after a good clean as you have to fill all the fire cracking with copper again maby that's what their on about

G

[oaken]

If first shot consistency is important to you then the least disturbance is best.

I just remove carbon with Carbout to keep the chamber and throat clean every 25-50 shots. Inbetween, a pullthrough without the brushes to remove powder residue.

However, as stated above, for a target rifle where you have the luxury of fouling shots, clean everything out. This way you are always starting the fouling process from a consistent state of clean.

So imho either strip copper thoroughly every time or not at all!

[dannywayoflife]

I clean my cf's after every outing. When I Clean I finish up with the kg moly bore prep as it seems to mean less fouling shots.

[shooter79]

Any one seen the Art of Precision Rifle? Todd Hodnett of Accuracy 1st gives a good account on barrel cleaning if your into long range shooting / competition. I think it really depends on what discipline of shooting your doing and how well your barrel is made to be honest. I will be leaving copper in my barrel past 500 rounds. Its the carbon that pits the barrel in the end and that will be removed with a bore snake after every session. I also believe too much cleaning in itself creates extra wear and tear which should be minimized.

 

Final point - every one will have their own way to deal with cleaning the bore, i don't think there is a "by the book way" so to speak.

 

Regards

 

Carl

[walkabout]

Interesting views and methods.

I have a Bartlein Barrel fitted by Baldy Dave, and it's great before that a Broughton.

The Broughton needed cleaning for Carbon & Copper after about 70 rounds before it went off, but came on in 2 or 3 shots.

The Bartlein I have shot about 500 rounds through it, for the first 300 I cleaned for both.

The last 2oo I have only cleaned for carbon, there has been no difference in grouping.

Granted I have only shot it at 100/200/300 yards but the groups are great, at 100 it has shot half a dozen actual 8mm 5 shot groups.

In saying that, it shot a 9mm in the first 20 rounds! and when I was cleaning for copper using KG copper cleaner it hardly produced any.

At 100 yards from cold the first 5 shots produce a 15mm group the first shot always high, then once the barrel is warm the group then shrinks.

I think I might keep the carbon only cleaning "experiment" for a few more hundred rounds and see what happens.

It seems that the speed of a bullet may effect cleaning, I only push my 6.5x47L to about 2800fps, if I was pushing them

over 3000fps they would be striping more copper I gather?

 

Mark

[Canadian F-Class Guy]

I cannot speak from a scientific point of view, however there is an "educated" belief that copper only accumulates to a thickness measured in molecules, and therefore it represents only a very small fraction of what you would consider to be "fouling". Carbon on the other hand continues to be laid-down during combustion and, well, we have all had stubborn carbon fouling. I have personally shot in many F-Class matches where over the course of several days, the bores of my rifles never caught so much as a whiff of amonia - or any other cleaner. (And yes, I managed to acquit myself score-wise).

 

The flip side of this argumant falls squarely on the side of benchrest shooters that embark on an obsessive ritual or barrel sanitization after each clucth of rounds. Their results are compelling evidence to this ritual's merit.

 

My own personal - an much reproachable - opionion is that I can comfortably hold the sub .5MOA V-Bull of an F-Class target for the duration of any match without cleaning. I would also add that I too have spent some anxious moments with a spanking clean barrel, and watched precision improve as the first rounds fouled my barrel.

 

...I also cross the toes on my left foot and curl my tongue when I shoot, so i have not taken ALL variables into account

[eldon]

Nice first post CFCG and welcome

 

I used to clean with all sorts of chemicals but started just using a bore snake with the odd drop of oil on it if its been raining. Once missed a roe due to a "chemicaled clean bore". After a wet morning out when the water was dripping out of the trigger and magazine well. Gave it a dose of wd40 at dinnertime to stop any rust forming and straight away in the afternoon game was on. No chance for a clearing/fouling shot. I missed from a secure high seat position. 2nd shot when the doe posed at a wall was smack on.

 

Confidence is now good for first round shot just using a bore snake so i keep it as is

 

I should add the rifle above is just a run of the mill Remington factory heavy barrel.

[Andrew]

I don't clean rifles of copper unless they are to be used for cast bullets. My jacketed bullet rifles get the powder cleaned out til the patches turn grey and that's it. I rebarreled one of my 30-06 rifles last spring and the new barrel has never been cleaned of copper. A few hundred rounds later it still shoots under half MOA and last month planted bullets into three deer with no surprises. My uber-reliable and accurate 7x57 has never had the copper cleaned from it in the 32 years I've owned it.I keep hearing about copper build up but I wonder: where does it go? At some point the barrel must reach a saturation level.~Andrew

[Canadian F-Class Guy]

I clean my barrel thoroughly after 20-30 shots, if I don't it starts to go off, after cleaning I have to shoot 2-3 shots to get it on song again. My rifle is a varminting gun and holds 5 shots 100m groups at .25" consistently. After spending what I consider to be a lot of money on my rig I am not going to risk trashing the barrel through lack of maintenance.

 

A very good argument. One of the factors that I consider is the risk of crown damage through excessive cleaning (an instant precision killer) , and the fact that bullet-on-barrel is a source of mechanical wear. Again, I cannot speak with any sort of scientific authority and I am for all intents and purpooses just anopther anonymous post on the net, so this represents merely my intuitive opinion. Is there any basis of fact in my opinion that you can kill a barrel with kindness?

 

Cheers,

 

Ian