Wilson hand dies (sorry its really long)

[craigyboy]

 

I have loaded over 300 rounds now using Wilson hand dies so thought it was about time I done a little write up on them.

 

I intially bought the dies because of price and as I might want to reload on the range this setup was far more compact, I had been wanting a set of Redding competition dies for the tac20 as I wanted to neck size on the outside only with the bushing setup but the Redding setup was very expensive and I came across a kit sinclair sold which included there own arbor press and a stainless micrometer wilson chamber type seater and a stainless wilson bushing neck sizer + the neck die base all for cheaper than a set of redding comp dies, and I figured this would be handy for future as the dies themselves only cost about half of the price that redding comp dies would. I already had a wilson case trimmer and rated it so I thought I couldnt go far wrong.

 

Neck sizer

 

The neck sizer is a simple affair there is no adjustment with it and wilson state in the instructions that it sizes 3/16" of the case neck.

 

 

Its also compatiable with redding bushings as well as wilsons own bushings. There is a push out rod to push the case back out of the die as the hand die setup does not work with shellholders, the push out rod also incoporates a decapping pin so you simply press the case into the die, flip the die over and press down on the push out rod which removes the case and decaps. The push out rod is held by 2 friction pads inside the die which are adjusted by two allen screws either side so to allow the push out rod to move freely while not being shaky, again simple to set up.

 

Just drop a case into the top of the die and push down with the arbor press, there you have a sized case.

 

 

To decap, just flip the die over in the neck die base and push down on the push out/decap rod when the case bottoms out on the neck die base further pushing will remove the primer and the primer will be collected under the neck die base, which can hold about 35 small rifle primers.

 

 

 

To remove the bushing is a simple process, simply loosen one of the friction pad adjustment screws, pull out the push out rod

 

 

Then loosen one of the allen screws on top slightly and completely remove the other, now the top will swing around to reveal the bushing.

 

 

Seater

 

 

The seater is straight forward enough, the micrometer is very smooth and 100 % repeatable with a set screw to lock in place, I wish the setscrew was allen head but for some reason then decided to use a slot head screw. All you do to seat a bullet is set up a case and bullet, slide the die over the top of the case and bullet and press down the seater plug with the arbor press, hey presto one very staright cartridge.

 

 

The only thing that bothers me is that the seater plug seems to have some sort of spring back just ever so slight, when you seat a bullet and rise the arobor press the plug sits up from the die a fraction making you think the bullet is not seated the full way but when you push down again it goes tight against the die but springs back again when you rasie the press, I dont know how it happens it might be something to do with the fit of the particular bullet I am using to the seater plug, it doesnt effect seater depth consistency tough I have never seen more than 0.001 of variation so I cant complain.

 

 

 

Runout with this setup is very very good I have yet to see a bullet with more than 0.002 and that was the biggest I have seen most are 0.001 which is I think as good as it gets, I have even seen a few flatliners on the gauge, I did have a better guage on the runout setup that measured to 0.0001 but some asshole dropped it (me) so I had to make do with the cheapo dial. I made a short vid of me running some through the runout gauge, you will see the occasional big spike on the dial but obviously this is me and my fat fingers tring to hold the case and failing, I dont think there is one case with more than about 0.001 on this vid maybe one or 2 just slightly more. Good stuff. Sorry for the sideways vid, I couldnt for the life of me work out how to rotate it, but you can see the dial.

 

 

 

The Sinclair Arbor Press

 

I dont really know what to say about this as it has a very simple job but it does performs it flawlessly, height is very easily adjusted with the quick release handle and it works very smooth and is very protable, I have since seen the K & M arbor press with the leverage ratio indicator which would be dead handy for keeping an eye on varying neck tension but I will stick with the sinclair for the foreseable future as it does the job spot on.

[brown dog]

Many thanks for the excellent write-up.

 

Do you find the hand dies more 'fiddly' and time consuming than conventional dies?

[craigyboy]

I would say they are abit more fiddly just to use but only slightly but are far handier as you dont have to unscrew them from the press all the time to change over to other dies, also I find them a bit easier to set up.

[325WSM]

Super write up and excellent descriptive photos. Thanks for taking so much time doing it.

 

 

May I offer one suggestion re the slotted screw locking facility.

 

Get a small length of hard nylon and in a lathe turn a short length the right diameter to sit in the screw hole tightly then force in a 1/8" piece and add locking screw.

 

They use a slotted screw so you don't over tighten and damage either the threads or the point at which the set screw 'bites' but the small insert of nylon will prevent that anyway and still hold things firmly enough for most folk.

 

If you cannot do that email with a size and an address and I will send you some bits ready to insert.

M

[craigyboy]

Thanks for the tip and the very kind offer 325 WSM, I will have a bash at the insert myself and see if I can manage it failing that I will give you a shout. Thanks very much.

[Vermincinerator]

Nice write up craigy, i thought you would like them.

Most people i know who have swapped to hand dies find them superior to 7/8 dies in there use and enjoy the portability of set up

Whether they load more accurate ammo then Redding comp dies, would IMO need extensive testing and thousands of rounds through BR rifles to prove one type is better then the other.

 

Ian.

[Oly]

Excellent write up mate. I've seen a few guys down the ranges with these and they are a great compact little set up, very fast and easy too. When I first saw them I was only just getting into reloading and asked my mate (who advised me on what to get etc, and who had been reloading professionally for years) why he hadn't suggested an arbor press kit to me - basically his answer was that after trying them compared to the Redding Comp dies they basically weren't quite as accurate and the margin for error was greater due to the process/equipment involved. Also repeatability of a round wasn't as good too. Excellent bits of kit though, and if I wasn't so anal I might have gone down that route myself!!

[craigyboy]

Oly your mate must not have tested them too much, the runout expected with the wilson dies is at max 2 thou but generally I see 1 thou, using redding dies and a threaded press you would expect up to 3 thou, we are only splitting hairs here and if runout is anywhere under 3 thou its great, but there is no way in hell a set of redding dies is more accurate than a set of wilson hand dies, there is no more margin for error either what can go wrong? They use the exact same principle as standard threaded dies just with a different way of performing the task, the way the seater die works is very accurate because it allows the bullet to totally enter the die before starting seating which means the case is supported totally by die so provided the die is good and straight the round is gonna be good and straight, the neck sizer works in much the same principle, I think you should tell your mate too check again, I am not saying that hand dies and an arbor press are better than a good set of redding comp dies, theres virtually nothing in it and if you prefer to use redding dies fair enough but to say "they basically weren't quite as accurate and the margin for error was greater due to the process/equipment involved. Also repeatability of a round wasn't as good too" well thats a load of that which promotes growth and vigour. Did you watch that run out gauge at all inthe Video??????? I have used both set ups and with redding dies I expect usually up to 3 thou but generally 2 thou and with wilson dies I expect up to 2 thou but generally only 1 thou, as I say nothing worth talking about but hand dies are definatley not a poor less accurate choice, I am super duper anal and load to the best of my ability and I only use the best hence why I use wilson hand dies because in the real world after testing for my self I found them marginally more accurate than redding dies, definatley not more margin for error or less repeatability, dont know where the hell that would come from. Mostly hand dies are used by benchrest shooters who generally shoot the tightest groups of all. I would still have no problem using redding dies either if I couldnt get hold of wilson dies, this is not a case of I own it so it has to be the best, I just do generally think hand dies have the edge.

 

Sorry I may be coming off a bit pissed off here, just sick of people saying they heard such and such wasnt so good from an unkown source etc the usuall arm chair shooter type crap, I spend most of my spare time shooting targets and reloading ammo these days and I see the results of alot of my actions on paper, not in writing on the internet. I know most of the guys on this forum probably shoot way more than I even do or ever will and knwo way more about it all than myself but I am also starting to build up a small knowledge based on real time on target performance, not hear say. ps oly this is not really aimed at you its just a general rant and its more aimed at the guy who told you that crock of that which promotes growth and vigour.

 

Enough ranting for tonite, Im off foxing.

[John MH]

"The only thing that bothers me is that the seater plug seems to have some sort of spring back just ever so slight, when you seat a bullet and rise the arobor press the plug sits up from the die a fraction making you think the bullet is not seated the full way but when you push down again it goes tight against the die but springs back again when you rasie the press, I dont know how it happens it might be something to do with the fit of the particular bullet I am using to the seater plug, it doesnt effect seater depth consistency tough I have never seen more than 0.001 of variation so I cant complain."

 

I've been using a Wilson Seater die for .223 rem for a couple of years now and have never had any problems and agree that 0.001 to 0.002 runout is the norm; I full length resize my cases on a Foster co-axial press and Dillon Carbide Die as I reload several hundred at a time and must have no problems chambering rounds during rapid fire so, if I neck sized only, then I would probably get even better runout.

 

What I can say is that I think the observation above is normal with the seating die stem is due to the compressed air pressure trapped in the die between the bullet and stem base in a very well made and close fitting setup, it is nothing to worry about, in fact if it stopped doing it then I would start to worry and look for where the die is wearing.

 

John MH

[craigyboy]

Thanks for your view on the slight "springback thing" I never worried about it too much as the rounds were so consitant it was just a bit annyoing, glad you find them to be as good as I have John.

[Oly]

Craig, fair enough...your entitled to your opinon and as such no offence is taken, but this info is off a good friend of mine whom I shoot with who reloads 1000's of rounds a year as he is a professional stalker as well as an excellent competition shooter - he even gets the vast majority of the gear he wants paid for by his employer!! So what I say hasn't come from a sitting room reloader, a biased opinon, or someone who has only tried both processes for a few hundred rounds...I'm talking of someone who doesn't shoot much less than highly customised rifles and shoots 1000's of rounds a year.

[craigyboy]

Fair enough oly as you say were all entitailed to our opinions, although it isnt really my opinion I did test it so to me its fact, in my case anyhow, though as I did say its very very marginal and not worth talking about, it will all come down to which setup you prefer using as both are capable of relaoding very accurate ammo. Just for the record this year alone I have shot over 1100 centerfire rifle rounds and reloaded over 900 of them, the rest were shot in .303 classic rifle and I dont usually load for it, though I am gonna start soon. I relaoded 600 on redding dies for my .204 ruger and 300 on my wilson hand dies for the tactical20, for some reason I keep highly detailed records, I could probably tell you exactly how much rabbits I have shot, I am a bit nuts

[Oly]

Craig, it's not nuts, it's a good record to have and look at over the years. Like you say it is probably marginal, but utimately that's what reloading for a lot of people is about (not just saving money!), gaining the odd part of an inch here and there to make a big difference overall. I know the mate I'm talking about is absolutely nuts about accuracy, reloading and shooting...which I guess you have to be in order to turn any hobby into a profession without taking all the joy out of it!

[Ronin]

Accuracy becomes and OBSESSION

 

Nice review Craig, i'll not be swapping over to the Arbour system as I have invested heavilly in Redding Comp dies, but if I ever change ,,,,,,IT'L BE YOUR FAULT

[Guest northernchris]

Good thread there Craigy I use the same set up as you when loading for the .22-250 i find it pretty dam quick,certainly no slower than useing std press and Redding comp dies.

[Guest varmartin]

Yep...very good write up .

 

I don`t use them so can`t comment , I use only Reading comp and S type dies.

 

Like the look and the convenience of them though.

 

Martin

[craigyboy]

Thanks lads. Ronin accuracy definatley becomes an obsession, my women thinks I need to see a doctor about it and I really dont think she is joking. Its all I think about these days trying to get a wee bit more outta the rifle and ammo its good fun though. I am starting to build a new house in January and am going to put in the ultimate gun/reloading room, benches all around etc. The house I am in at the minute is quite small and I had my relaoding bench up in my joinery workshop but its too bloody cold up there these days and I dont like all my gear out in the cold so I moved it all down to the house, the kitchen table is now mine for the next 6 months

[foxing2night]

Hi gents,

I have been using wilson dies for years now!!!, And i fined that the consistancy Is very, very good,,,,,,,,,,

 

The bench rest guys all over the world use these dies and the results speak for themselves!!!!

 

Easy to use!!!!, and not as messy as some of the ordinary dies ( no need for lube)

 

And the brass does not need triming all of the time, as i had to do with my other press??

 

All that i fined is that they need to be shoulder bump once and a wile, More so if you use hot loads as i tend to do???

 

Also you can buy a good set up on the internet from sinclairs,,,,,, Or from trent firearms in stoke

 

Steve is a very nice man to deal with, and he knows what he is on about??

 

All the best darrel

[craigyboy]

Darrel I have found he exact same as you when using wilson dies, great set-up, I have dealt with Steve at Trent firearms a few times, great shop one of the best for precision shooting type gear in the uk they have pretty much anything you need (even had a 40 degree cutter for my sinclair neck turner, which I was not expecteing to actually find)

[foxing2night]

Hi graig,

Good right up there my mate!! "welldone",,,,,,,,

 

Now perhaps a lot more people will start to Load the same way???

 

I for one would not go back to the old press!!!!

 

The only other dies that i found to be any good were thee redding comp dies ??

 

Take care

 

Darrel

[Redfox]

Good write up I like the way they work and accuracy is pretty well built in, what are you showing with the caliper, neck length? you say above they resize 3/16 which is .1875", is this the length of your necks on the 20tac?

Nice little vid too, no argument with the runout there.

Redfox

[craigyboy]

Redfox the calipers are trying to show the amount of the neck that is actually sized which is about 0.155, you can sort of see it in the pic with the bright ring. The dies must be setup to size 3/16" of an inch of the neck from the full length chamber which in the tac20's case is .1760, I trim my brass back at 1.740 which leaves .020 missing so the die is actually sizing 0.1750 from the chamber end, so its not to far away from 0.1875 or 3/16".

The runout is great with them.

[Redfox]

I thought it must be that. I certainly like the quality and method of working, I might be persuaded down that route myself in the future, but I have a couple of other things to save up and pay for first.

Redfox