Bulletless fire-forming

[TonyH]

I wonder what recipes people know of, or have used themselves, for fire-forming .223-sized cases (actually 20Tac) without wasting expensive bullets or reducing barrel life unnecessarily. I know there's stuff out there on the Web but I wouldn't necessarily trust it, which is where the experienced people on this board come in...

Thanks - Tony

[1967spud]

[Elwood]

Follow Marks Youtube link.

 

To work out how much powder is needed, fill the case to over flowing and then level it off, weigh the amount and then use 10% of the weight, obviously 56 grains would equal 5.6 grains. It's unlikely that this will be enough so then work up in half grain increments.

Instead of using soap or wax as a sealant I used tissue paper rolled up into a ball. If you do a search for 6mm Crusader on this site you will see my procedure.

 

Word of warning be very very careful as it is very easy to double charge a case using pistol powder.

[TonyH]

Thanks for the link, Mark - interesting. How did you settle on a start figure for Blue Dot charge weights - pure trial & error, or were you guided in some way? (Anyone got a small quantity of Blue Dot....?) At a guess OTTOMH maybe 10 grains would suit the 20Tac case.

Tony

Ah, posted before reading Elwood's message which solves things precisely...... many thanks!

[c18rch]

The problem with bullet-less fireforming is I haven't seen one yet that fully forms the case so I would imagine the first load will still be slightly different to subsequent loads and all you will have accomplised is wasting some pistol powder.

 

For my 30-06 AI I worked up an accurate fireforming load. In typical sods law fashion it's more accurate than my proper loads . They may not be going full velocity but you can still use them for practising, I even managed to get them to shoot reasonably well at 1000yds.

[TonyH]

The problem with bullet-less fireforming is I haven't seen one yet that fully forms the case so I would imagine the first load will still be slightly different to subsequent loads and all you will have accomplised is wasting some pistol powder.

 

For my 30-06 AI I worked up an accurate fireforming load. In typical sods law fashion it's more accurate than my proper loads . They may not be going full velocity but you can still use them for practising, I even managed to get them to shoot reasonably well at 1000yds.

 

I take your point Rup (?) but I hadn't expected to get a 100% formed case this way, just one that was much closer to my chamber dimensions than a virgin case - maybbe close enough that I could use it in the field and my standard click-chart figures would still be damn close. I don't really do "practicing" though I can certainly use firefom loads for initial load development, checking differences between primers etc; I don't mind wasting pistol powder since I have no other use for that, and it's better than wasting expensive bullets and barrel life!

I think I'll try the method outlined by spud, with input from Elwood - one reason to do this is that with appropriate muffling (dustbin filled with foam rubber?) i should be able to firefom cases in my garage rather than trekking off into the fields or to the range.

Tony

[Elwood]

14 and half grains of unique formed my cases (6mm Rem)as opposed to 49 grains of RL22. The faster the powder the less you will need.

I can't say I agree with Circh post about wasting pistol powder, my experience is that the cases will be formed to 99.9% what's remaining will not make any noticable difference. I have tested fire formed loads with a stout load of rifle powder and bullets against the COW method and certainly didn't notice any difference in accuracy out to 600 yards.

[1967spud]

I have to agree with Ian on this one frm all the cow method fireforming ive done ive never noticed a real difference or lack of fireforming in the case. Its as good as the other methos with a lot more to gain i.e. barrel wear , bullet usage.

 

As i say ion the vid even with pistol powders in large cases like this you need to work your loads up to get the most effective/safest fireforming load from the pistol powder

 

 

good luck and get back to us if you need more help

[Snowz]

 

Ones bulletless fire forming and ones normal fireforming

 

Nothing in it to me it gets the case 99% formed and at less cost and wear

[1967spud]

Rich i bet the cow one is on the left right

[Snowz]

Rich i bet the cow one is on the left right

 

 

Top marks for you Mark lol

[TonyH]

Gentlemen, thanks for all this useful info, which helps a lot. No reason I shouldn't use up some Winchester 760 powder for this, is there? It's slow, and 15-20gr in a 223/20Tac case would be very gentle.

Tony

[1967spud]

you actually need a fast pistol powder the powder you mentioned is not suitable i am afraid and may be dangerous due to over pressure

[Scotch_egg]

I have only formed a few .20Tac cases myself due to having a few hundred factory dakota brass.

 

However I can form a pretty good .223 to .20tac using the FL die, give it a go. No need to fireform.

 

I only tried if after advice from 6mmbr on the site

[TC]

one reason to do this is that with appropriate muffling (dustbin filled with foam rubber?) i should be able to firefom cases in my garage rather than trekking off into the fields or to the range.

Tony

 

This is the only way I can form 6.5x47 Brass for my 6.5 Nemesis. I form a false shoulder by expanding to 7mm then necking back down and get cases I would call 99%+ complete, the shoulders sharpen slightly on second firing but the H20 capacity difference is miniscule.

 

To your comment above, I use a roll of old carpet as a giant moderator You will still need your ear muffs but does not sound like gunfire from outside.

 

Having run out of the ground rice I was using as a filler I had to search the village shop for a substitute - I can confirm the Cadbury's Smash works very nicely although more embarrasing to buy than a copy of Razzle and a tub of Vaseline....

 

 

Have fun.

 

Tony

[TonyH]

you actually need a fast pistol powder the powder you mentioned is not suitable i am afraid and may be dangerous due to over pressure

 

Curious about this, Mark: 760 is too slow as a "proper" powder for 20Tac so why/how might it cause over-pressure? my current load uses 23.8gr of N130, so I'd have thought the 15-20gr of 760 I suggested for case forming would be perfectly safe... But do correct me if I'm wrong! BTW I'm not trying to form 20Tac brass from .223, just wishing to blow out my factory Lapua/Dakota brass to fit the chamber more snugly than it does in its virgin state.

Tony

[1967spud]

when you dont use a bullet to cause resyistance to the powder as a normal shot would happen you need a fast pp make sure that the case is blown out instantly as apposed to all that rifle powder burning up the bbl as there is no resistance ceated by the plug i.e. soap od oasis

[TonyH]

This is the only way I can form 6.5x47 Brass for my 6.5 Nemesis. I form a false shoulder by expanding to 7mm then necking back down and get cases I would call 99%+ complete, the shoulders sharpen slightly on second firing but the H20 capacity difference is miniscule.

 

To your comment above, I use a roll of old carpet as a giant moderator You will still need your ear muffs but does not sound like gunfire from outside.

 

Having run out of the ground rice I was using as a filler I had to search the village shop for a substitute - I can confirm the Cadbury's Smash works very nicely although more embarrasing to buy than a copy of Razzle and a tub of Vaseline....

 

 

Have fun.

 

Tony

Thanks Tony, I've done something like your carpet trick in the past when I wanted to let off blank rounds in the garage - I've still got the old carpet, plus loads of foam, etc. Re your other tip, must dig out a long mac and a false beard - to buy the Smash, that is, not the, er, Razzle + Vaseline...

Tony

[MarinePMI]

Has anyone used the hydraulic form dies? If so, any comments? It would seem this would be prefered in the UK, as powder and primers are so expensive...

[c18rch]

14 and half grains of unique formed my cases (6mm Rem)as opposed to 49 grains of RL22. The faster the powder the less you will need.

I can't say I agree with Circh post about wasting pistol powder, my experience is that the cases will be formed to 99.9% what's remaining will not make any noticable difference. I have tested fire formed loads with a stout load of rifle powder and bullets against the COW method and certainly didn't notice any difference in accuracy out to 600 yards.

 

I can see the advantages of bullet-less fire-forming to some people. All I'm saying is if I used this method it will have cost me 14gr of powder and a primer and the only benefit will have been practising trigger technique. I have also heard some people complain about throat wear from this method. I have never used this method or even replaced a barrel on my 30-06 yet so cannot comment but the fact that you are sending hot gasses up the barrel will cause some wear, admittedly nowhere near the levels of wear from firing a bullet up the barrel but still.

 

 

 

By fire-forming with a proper round whilst plinking of practising or for short range stuff I can improve technique, wind reading and practise from different positions etc which I would do anyway using normal loads if I haven’t got anything to fire-form. Yes the ballistics are not the same but when on a range of known distances does this really matter.

 

 

 

Rich

 

 

[Elwood]

I can see the advantages of bullet-less fire-forming to some people. All I'm saying is if I used this method it will have cost me 14gr of powder and a primer and the only benefit will have been practising trigger technique. I have also heard some people complain about throat wear from this method. I have never used this method or even replaced a barrel on my 30-06 yet so cannot comment but the fact that you are sending hot gasses up the barrel will cause some wear, admittedly nowhere near the levels of wear from firing a bullet up the barrel but still.

 

 

 

By fire-forming with a proper round whilst plinking of practising or for short range stuff I can improve technique, wind reading and practise from different positions etc which I would do anyway using normal loads if I haven’t got anything to fire-form. Yes the ballistics are not the same but when on a range of known distances does this really matter.

 

 

 

Rich

 

Rich, I do agree with you about using the fire forming for wind reading practise, especially when using a calibre with a good barrel life. From what I'm told there are quite a few calibres that are very accurate in the fire forming process, the 284 to shehane, 22.250 to AI and the 234 to AI to name but a few. I think if were using a sporting calibre then I would be doing the same as yourself.

 

In my case I'm using a calibre with a barrel life of 1000-1200 rounds so putting 100 rounds down the barrel to form cases didn't seem logical, I also didn't think I would be getting the load data that I really needed to be able to shoot in competitions, I would liken it to running a formula one car on unleaded.

 

If I were using the cheapest bullets it would have cost me £25 and then 4900 grains of powder, that's 70% of a tub at say another £25, with the £50 saved I can now buy another box of gold plated Berger 180 VLD's

[TonyH]

................ the fact that you are sending hot gasses up the barrel will cause some wear, admittedly nowhere near the levels of wear from firing a bullet up the barrel but still..............

Rich

 

 

 

Rich, this is a strong motivation for me to try fireforming with no bullet! Less barrel wear, when I've shelled out large sums for rebarrelling, is very significant; avoiding waste of bullets is important, when top varmint bullets currently cost over 20p each at inflated UK prices; producing fireformed cases at home, rather than trekking out into the field or to the range (my ranges are 70 miles and 90 miles distant!) is highly convenient...

Tony