An Essay on Annealing for Accuracy

[Si-Snipe]

Over annealed brass

 

Freshly annealed - correctly done

 

The simple setup I use

[Si-Snipe]

Si, if you like it that much you could always do my 6.5x47 brass for me???

 

And beleive me i do not let any old body play with my brass

 

Keep it going fella,s

 

Darrel

 

Just a thought Darrel - why not send me 10 cases that are old and on the way out. I'll anneal them in my usual way and post them back. Then you could test the accuracy of those vs the rest of the old batch?

If you want to try this for a test I'll PM you my address.

Your choice.

Si

[Guest richness]

Over annealed brass

 

Freshly annealed - correctly done

 

The simple setup I use

 

They're rubbish mate. My brass is much nicer than your brass

[baldie]

You two ever heard of beer, or shagging ?

[Guest richness]

You two ever heard of beer, or shagging ?

 

From you, Dave, I take that as a great compliment on our commitment to our art

[baldie]

Good on yer fella,s its a very interesting thread, and its only a shame more folk dont strive for perfection in loading and shooting as you guys do.

I,ve had a couple of full blown customs go this last month to people who were going to feed them factory ammo.

 

Pearls before swine.

 

Next time you are down Rich, let me know, and i,ll show you my annealing machine.

[Guest richness]

Good on yer fella,s its a very interesting thread, and its only a shame more folk dont strive for perfection in loading and shooting as you guys do.

I,ve had a couple of full blown customs go this last month to people who were going to feed them factory ammo.

 

Pearls before swine.

 

Next time you are down Rich, let me know, and i,ll show you my annealing machine.

 

That is very kind, thanks.

Factory ammo in full custom....makes you cringe a bit doesn't it?

Thanks re annealing machine; i'd be most interested to see that.

Could do with a chat with you at some point this summer anyway. By the autumn i'll be looking to rebarrel the 204R. If you remember, you put one of the very first Archers on. Well it's done a lot of good work since and is now going off a little. At best it did a fingernail at 225y, and inch at 300y and 1.4" 400y. Now it's doing roughly .8"@225y, 1.6"@300y and 2.75"@400y. That's OK for a few hundred more shots this summer at sub 400y but i will want it sorted fairly soon so i can trust it fully once more. The rem varmint profile I have shakes its head sometimes with the big DM80 mod on so i definitely want a heavier profile on, and i'll go up to 25" from 22.5". Cost is the key, though - i'm looking for the cheapest quote. Don't mind which match barrel it is as long as it is at least 1/11"

OR you can build me a full custom on one of your beautiful new actions and I'll give you £100 PM for a long time

[c18rch]

Oh dear, Rich you're talking to the wrong guy re brass prep! Si loves brass prep so much he sends me photos of freshly annealed brass and goes on about how exactly even the annealing rings are and that the chamfer is precisely the same angle because he held his breath while he was doing them etc etc ....He loves brass prep like a big nutty nutter.

Myself, I wouldn't say I hated it but I don't sleep with Lapua brass under my pillow like Si. I do see it as a necessary evil in that i believe it to be an absolutely crucial part of long range accuracy.

 

WRT your questions, lower fps spread = less vertical and tighter groups. How much depends on how work hardened previous brass had got....and how far you're shooting etc etc

Brass life, well annealing brass keeps it usable and accurate for longer. I suppose i rate it to last about 3x as long as brass that's never annealed but it varies.

ATB Richard :0

 

I understand the advantages of annealing and where they come from. What I was getting at was is it the difference between a V-bull and a 5 or is it the difference between the top of the v-bull or the centre?

 

I've shot the marker out of the target at 1000yds at bisley twice now (with witnesses ) with brass that has been fired about 8 times. I have noticed that the brass is harder each reload but I don't get much (if any) variation within that batch of brass. My groups from that particular rifle don't usually have much vertical in them (windage is another matter entirely ). I certainly got me thinking. I'm gonna keep more of an eye on whats happening in future to see if I should start annealing.

 

 

 

You two ever heard of beer, or shagging ?

 

 

 

Rich

[Guest richness]

Fair enough Rich. Not saying it's a huge thing but that it might be useful. Although that said, when I tested my old 243 brass against freshly annealed the difference was absolutely remarkable... It's a suck it and see job I suppose mate. At 1000y i'd be annealing, that's for sure. I can't believe the groups you guys get all the way out there! Amazing:)

What is the v-bull and what is the marker, BTW? I'd be interested to clarify that please.

[c18rch]

V-bull/X-ring is the 5" (for F-class) bull. It counts as a 5 for score but ist used to differentiate between tied scores.

 

50.5 would be 50 with 5 v-bulls.

50.6 would be 50 with 6 v-bulls. The higher v-bull count wins.

 

The marker is the orange (usually) disk/square that the person in the butts shoves through your bullet hole so that you can see where your shot has fallen.

 

Like you say, I think I'm goning to give it a try and see how much difference it makes.

 

Rich

[Guest richness]

Very useful thanks. So a vbull is half moa @1000y. Cool

And hitting the marker is going some as that is an inch square at 1000y. COOL

Good lookin mate

[jack]

So why anneal the necks only when the shoulder is subject to movement as well?

 

The video shown on www.Ammosmith.com anneal the shoulders as well as the necks.

 

I inspected some once fired Lapua cases and the discolouration, which I assume is annealing, goes about 1/3 of the way down the body.

[foxing2night]

Just a thought Darrel - why not send me 10 cases that are old and on the way out. I'll anneal them in my usual way and post them back. Then you could test the accuracy of those vs the rest of the old batch?

If you want to try this for a test I'll PM you my address.

Your choice.

Si

Well Si i think that is a good idea,,,

 

Send me a pm and i will get some in the post,,,

 

Darrel

[Si-Snipe]

So why anneal the necks only when the shoulder is subject to movement as well?

 

The video shown on www.Ammosmith.com anneal the shoulders as well as the necks.

 

I inspected some once fired Lapua cases and the discolouration, which I assume is annealing, goes about 1/3 of the way down the body.

 

I am not primarily interested in increasing case life - which I presume is the main reason why ammosmith anneals. The necks control bullet release which gives the results on the targets. Annealing the shoulders will allow manipulation of the case over an extended period without cracks/splits etc. I just like to ensure the necks are done - if the shoulder gets done too as it does - bonus.

 

 

Darrel - PM inbound.

Si

[Bad Wolf]

Excellent information. However, as a relative newbie, I'm trying to grasp whether annealing would be of any benefit to me as a bunny basher, shooting out to about 250 - 300 yards.

 

So, while I understand that seating effort varies more with reloaded, as compared to new cases, and so could translate into poorer groups at long range, has anyone actually compared the MV ES from new and reloaded cases and would this ES difference be of significance only to the very long range hunter or competition bench rest shooter ?

[Elwood]

Excellent information. However, as a relative newbie, I'm trying to grasp whether annealing would be of any benefit to me as a bunny basher, shooting out to about 250 - 300 yards.

 

 

In a word No, other than it would increase your case life.

[foxing2night]

Results after receiving my annealed old brass back from Si!!!!!

 

Si and Rich did a very comprehensive report on there findings after a lot of work annealing and experimenting with there cases????

 

And after a kind offer by Si i duly sent some old cases that had had about 15 reloads on them,,, now at about a pound per cases, if i could reload them some more i would of been very happy,, (old cases kept for use down the fields)

 

so i set about to reload a few and get down to the farm to try them out,,,fantastic day with no wind what soever,,

 

First group three rounds one hole and and one slightly out, spoilt one of the best groups that my rifle as ever shot,,,,123g scenars were used,,,

 

Second group with brass that had not been annealed!!!!

 

Three bullets were all overlapping with one just at the edge, once again a very small group, but it was harder to get the group than with the brass that had been annealed????

123g scenars,,

95g b/tips, these are what i use for long range var-minting,,,

group was .5 of an inch,,, so very happy to use these for the fields (the smile factor and all that)

 

Sorry for a short write up, but i cannot get my pic,s to upload for some reason????

 

My conclusion is that it is well worth going to the trouble of annealing, not only will it en crease the life of your cases but it definitely gave bloody good accuracy to boot,,

 

Keep up the good work,,,

 

All the best, Darrel

[Si-Snipe]

Results after receiving my annealed old brass back from Si!!!!!

 

Si and Rich did a very comprehensive report on there findings after a lot of work annealing and experimenting with there cases????

 

And after a kind offer by Si i duly sent some old cases that had had about 15 reloads on them,,, now at about a pound per cases, if i could reload them some more i would of been very happy,, (old cases kept for use down the fields)

 

so i set about to reload a few and get down to the farm to try them out,,,fantastic day with no wind what soever,,

 

First group three rounds one hole and and one slightly out, spoilt one of the best groups that my rifle as ever shot,,,,123g scenars were used,,,

 

Second group with brass that had not been annealed!!!!

 

Three bullets were all overlapping with one just at the edge, once again a very small group, but it was harder to get the group than with the brass that had been annealed????

123g scenars,,

95g b/tips, these are what i use for long range var-minting,,,

group was .5 of an inch,,, so very happy to use these for the fields (the smile factor and all that)

 

Sorry for a short write up, but i cannot get my pic,s to upload for some reason????

 

My conclusion is that it is well worth going to the trouble of annealing, not only will it en crease the life of your cases but it definitely gave bloody good accuracy to boot,,

 

Keep up the good work,,,

 

All the best, Darrel

 

Thanks for the feedback Darrel. I would imagine at long range the results would be more obvious with less vertical spread on the annealed cases due to the more consistent neck tension throughout the batch.

I've got some 120g Amax on order for the rabbits. If they don't shoot I'll look to the 95g Vmax.

Regards,

Si

[foxing2night]

Thanks for the feedback Darrel. I would imagine at long range the results would be more obvious with less vertical spread on the annealed cases due to the more consistent neck tension throughout the batch.

I've got some 120g Amax on order for the rabbits. If they don't shoot I'll look to the 95g Vmax.

Regards,

Si

Si, to be honest the group that was shot with the annealed cases was rounder than the old cases witch were slightly elongated,,,

 

During load development i am always looking at the shape of the group???,, at this i mean how round the holes are what i am after,,,

 

One thing that i do not want is vertical in my loads????

 

I told you that i was fussy,,,

Top group was shot with annealed cases, note how round the first three bullet holes were,,,,

bottom group shot with old cases, slight vertical in the first three bullet holes,,

BOTH groups four rounds three in and one out??

Fantastic morning,,,

Big Schmidt

 

200yrd 95 vmax load,,

Packed up after this as the mirage was bad???

 

Darrel

[Si-Snipe]

Si, to be honest the group that was shot with the annealed cases was rounder than the old cases witch were slightly elongated,,,

 

During load development i am always looking at the shape of the group???,, at this i mean how round the holes are what i am after,,,

 

One thing that i do not want is vertical in my loads????

 

I told you that i was fussy,,,

Top group was shot with annealed cases, note how round the first three bullet holes were,,,,

bottom group shot with old cases, slight vertical in the first three bullet holes,,

BOTH groups four rounds three in and one out??

Fantastic morning,,,

Big Schmidt

 

200yrd 95 vmax load,,

Packed up after this as the mirage was bad???

 

Darrel

 

Thanks for taking the time to inc pics mate. That first group looks very nice. Shame that one slipped out or it would have been a single hole. Top shooting. How large is the 95g Vmax group? Do you use a similar charge with the 95 Vmax? I remember you mentioned you were getting about 3100-3200f/s? I bet you could have those babies going at 3400 with a stronger charge - that would be even more explosive.

 

Regards,

Si

[6.5shooter]

Darrel, did you compare the annealed brass to the unannealed brass over the chronograph?

It would be interesting to see if there was much difference as the chrono numbers would be important when you get out long range to see it the extreme spread would be decreased from the brass thats fired 15 times.

 

Garry

[foxing2night]

Si, the group at 200 with the 95 b/tips was around 3/4 inch, so not to shabby, but i recon only for the mirage it could of been a lot smaller, did not even take my time,, just put the crosshairs on the target an let rip???

really good load for vermin,,, i can load both my 123 scenars and the 95 with 38.5 and i get the same poi of the both loads!!! Now that's lucky,, don't have to change my scope settings???,

Si i did try 39.3 grains last year but to be honest i lost some accuracy,and poi was different so i will stick to my normal load???

 

Garry,

I have got a chrono reading in my range book that is in single figures,,, looking at the place on the target that the both groups landed, i would say that the anneald cases that Si did for me are going to be very low sd and es,,, i will dig the print out off the chrono out and get it up on the site???,,(you will not believe your eyes}

 

All the best , Darrel

[duey]

Hi Guys I,ve found this a very informative thread and have been pondering it for a little while and I am now contemplating having a go at annealing my brass as it has all had numerous reloads now

I was wondering if you re-neck size the brass after annealing as it appears that the process is best done on clean prepped brass or is the annealing the last process undertaken prior to loading

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Guest richness]

Hi buddy, and thanks! You definitely want to resize after annealing. Myself, I clean the brass with wire wool in the sink ( I don't use mechanical cleaners) with the old primers still in. Then I empty the water out and anneal them. I then start my normal resizing routine as normal, with the addition of a thorough drying step so that the primer pockets can thoroughly dry out. One speck of damp and you will have damp squibs. You can tell the pocket is dry when it goes all grey and powdery. HTH Richard

[duey]

Cheers rich

I had made my mide up that resizing was gonna be the thing to do but hadnt thought of doing a quick manual clean prior to annealing to save doing the same job over again

 

cheers

 

Ian