An Essay on Annealing for Accuracy

[onehole]

Thanks Si will be looking out for some potential annealing hardware in the diy shops over the next few weeks then and have a play.Must admit it would be good to be able to give many times fired and pampered brass a new lease of life if only to save all that neck turning on a new batch of "expensive" cases.

I am also just wondering that you guys may be experiencing inconsistent feel and grip on your heads when reloading because you do not neck turn or perhaps feel that it is not needed in a factory chamber and using standard "new brass"

When I neck turn new cases you can plainly see on quite a few cases that some have more meat on them than others hence more or less grip is experienced on a "factory" case if not turned to perfection. "Food for thought" Regds Onehole.

[John MH]

Dave

 

Bring your brass along on Thursday and I'll anneal it for you.

 

John MH

[onehole]

Dave

 

Bring your brass along on Thursday and I'll anneal it for you.

 

John MH

 

Ooooooooo! thanks John, brilliant offer will do see you Thursday,cheers David.

[Guest richness]

Well we've accepted each other's apologies and moved on I knew as soon as Si phoned me to vouch for foxingtonight that I'd got the wrong end of the stick...!

I must get out of the habit of expecting to defend every single post made that claims we shot anything past 300y! It's the main reason i moved here from bbs; i was just so sick of people heaping thinly-veiled sarcasm on every thread with any good groups or long shots.....Don't get that here and i should have given foxingtonight the benefit of the doubt

 

Anyway, happy annealing everyone!

[Si-Snipe]

I am also just wondering that you guys may be experiencing inconsistent feel and grip on your heads when reloading because you do not neck turn or perhaps feel that it is not needed in a factory chamber and using standard "new brass"

When I neck turn new cases you can plainly see on quite a few cases that some have more meat on them than others hence more or less grip is experienced on a "factory" case if not turned to perfection. "Food for thought" Regds Onehole.

 

Its not due to a lack of neck turning IMO. I get the same inconsistent seating pressure feel after the cases have been fired a few times, whether I am seating into neck-turned or non-neck turned Winchester .204 cases and 6.5x47 Lapua brass.

I understand what you are saying about neck turning as I used to do it often in my .204 but with the Lapua 6.5x47 brass I don't think it is un-concentric enough to worry about.

 

Darrel - I realised that you didn't mean it the way it sounded on your post. We have spoken a few times on the phone and you have been more than helpful plus I think you and I are interested in the same aspects of shooting so anything beneficial for either of us is better shared.

 

Hoping the weather will be good on Sat so I can stretch out this annealed brass.

3-5mph currently forecast! Fingers crossed and it will be less than 12mph on the moors.

 

Regards,

Si

[skany]

Good wright up lads & if anyone wants a visual aid ammosmith on u tube uses the same technique!

 

ive done it twice now for real with a propane mix pluming torch but not compaired groups down range or anything & to be fair the brass ive done has bee fires a lot (308) & has been mixed about a bit!

 

ive also had a play at work with the oxy acet plant this seemed really good!

 

I could get the necks to go blue much quicker & hardly get the rest of the case warm it was so fast!

 

only tried it on some old crap brass as a test but ill try it on some lapua now i have a new batch!

 

 

cheers Andy

[Si-Snipe]

Good wright up lads & if anyone wants a visual aid ammosmith on u tube uses the same technique!

 

ive done it twice now for real with a propane mix pluming torch but not compaired groups down range or anything & to be fair the brass ive done has bee fires a lot (308) & has been mixed about a bit!

 

ive also had a play at work with the oxy acet plant this seemed really good!

 

I could get the necks to go blue much quicker & hardly get the rest of the case warm it was so fast!

 

only tried it on some old crap brass as a test but ill try it on some lapua now i have a new batch!

 

 

cheers Andy

 

Hi Andy

 

It was the ammosmith videos on youtube that have me the idea of using a drill/blowtorch method. Very useful vids. I prefer to use the drill mouth rather than a socket to get a concentric rotation the flame for better visibility so its not jumping around. Then just back off the lock ring and the case will drop out easily.

Good luck testing the Lapua cases,

Si

[Alycidon]

T

 

I hear a lot of people that say they would not do br comps at 100 yrds, as there rifle shoots in the two,s and the one,s

 

Then when they turn up and the wind kills them at the diggle we never see them again???

 

 

 

 

The guys at Bisley on 100yard BR tell me exactly the same story, and yes I have been back !!.

 

Am planning to visit Diggle this summer for 100/200/600 yard BR, what sort of wind speeds are you getting up there?.

 

A

[skany]

Hi Andy

 

It was the ammosmith videos on youtube that have me the idea of using a drill/blowtorch method. Very useful vids. I prefer to use the drill mouth rather than a socket to get a concentric rotation the flame for better visibility so its not jumping around. Then just back off the lock ring and the case will drop out easily.

Good luck testing the Lapua cases,

Si

 

hi si

I used the lee case lock thing from the full length cutter on a 1/4 drive ratched scew driver shaft in a drill!

 

works a treat!

 

cheers Andy

[Si-Snipe]

hi si

I used the lee case lock thing from the full length cutter on a 1/4 drive ratched scew driver shaft in a drill!

 

works a treat!

 

cheers Andy

 

Yeah I was thinking of tryng that? Are they easy to loosen off quickly? Where did you get it from?

My drill is a bit difficult to use as the speed is not very consistent and I would prefer to use my electric driver.

Cheers,

Si

[c18rch]

An interesting post.

 

I hate brass prep as I think most people do, so although I would like to achieve benchrest levels of accuracy I don’t want to spend all my life reloading, I’d rather be out shooting. I know in the first post you said you noticed a difference in neck tension after a couple of reloads but how much difference did this make to your accuracy? Also how many reloads do you usually get from a batch of brass when you anneal compared to not annealing?

 

Rich

[Guest richness]

An interesting post.

 

I hate brass prep as I think most people do, so although I would like to achieve benchrest levels of accuracy I don’t want to spend all my life reloading, I’d rather be out shooting. I know in the first post you said you noticed a difference in neck tension after a couple of reloads but how much difference did this make to your accuracy? Also how many reloads do you usually get from a batch of brass when you anneal compared to not annealing?

 

Rich

Oh dear, Rich you're talking to the wrong guy re brass prep! Si loves brass prep so much he sends me photos of freshly annealed brass and goes on about how exactly even the annealing rings are and that the chamfer is precisely the same angle because he held his breath while he was doing them etc etc ....He loves brass prep like a big nutty nutter.

Myself, I wouldn't say I hated it but I don't sleep with Lapua brass under my pillow like Si. I do see it as a necessary evil in that i believe it to be an absolutely crucial part of long range accuracy.

 

WRT your questions, lower fps spread = less vertical and tighter groups. How much depends on how work hardened previous brass had got....and how far you're shooting etc etc

Brass life, well annealing brass keeps it usable and accurate for longer. I suppose i rate it to last about 3x as long as brass that's never annealed but it varies.

ATB Richard :0

[skany]

Yeah I was thinking of tryng that? Are they easy to loosen off quickly? Where did you get it from?

My drill is a bit difficult to use as the speed is not very consistent and I would prefer to use my electric driver.

Cheers,

Si

 

 

its not to bad si

 

benifit is its nice & long on a exttenson!

 

any one that stock lee stuff will have em for a few pounds!

 

they fit in the drill bit holders /extenders for batt drills ect!

 

cheers Andy

[SteveW]

its not to bad si

 

benifit is its nice & long on a exttenson!

 

any one that stock lee stuff will have em for a few pounds!

 

they fit in the drill bit holders /extenders for batt drills ect!

 

cheers Andy

 

The CRT annealing tools work well, I set mine up with the two Tempilaq paints while setting this correct I use a metronome to help me get exact timings.

http://www.customreloadingtools.com/crt_006.htm

HTH Steve

[Si-Snipe]

Oh dear, Rich you're talking to the wrong guy re brass prep! Si loves brass prep so much he sends me photos of freshly annealed brass and goes on about how exactly even the annealing rings are and that the chamfer is precisely the same angle because he held his breath while he was doing them etc etc ....He loves brass prep like a big nutty nutter.

Myself, I wouldn't say I hated it but I don't sleep with Lapua brass under my pillow like Si. I do see it as a necessary evil in that i believe it to be an absolutely crucial part of long range accuracy.

 

WRT your questions, lower fps spread = less vertical and tighter groups. How much depends on how work hardened previous brass had got....and how far you're shooting etc etc

Brass life, well annealing brass keeps it usable and accurate for longer. I suppose i rate it to last about 3x as long as brass that's never annealed but it varies.

ATB Richard :0

 

Nothing wrong with getting up-close and personal with your brass Rich. Its gone too far when your wife gets jealous though.

[dirtydawk]

Well done fellas,

 

This article is some of the best food for thought that I have ever seen on a shooting forum and I shall certainly be trying my hand at case annealing in the near future.

If there were more posts like this on all the shooting related forums then this whole reloading malarky would be a doddle!

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[foxing2night]

I also have enjoyed all of your posts!!!!

 

The old method that i use to do, was to fill up a bowl of water stand the cases in it with the water level just up to the shoulder heat them up and then knock them over into the water when done????? are the good old days

 

Now i am just lazy and can,t be bothered????

 

But this is what i do and it has worked very well for me!!!

 

I load with a wilson set up and you can really feel the neck tension as you reload,,

so what i do is i have two boxes on the table and if i feel a bullet seat lightly it goes into one box and if there is a heavy feel it goes into the second box and so on and so on until i have one box of fifty with a light neck tension and one box with a heavy neck tension,,,,,

This little trick i picked up from a chap that used to do a lot of shooting at 700 yrds,,

He noticed that there was a difference in his group due to one lot of brass with heavy and one lot with light neck tension????

 

Not hard to do but it does work better with wilson hand helled dies due to the feel that you get from them,,,,

 

Now my other school of thought is that cases are so bloody dear at the moment, proper annealing like you lads are doing wold get me a lot more life out of a one hundred pound box of brass???( I know i am a tight aresed Welsh man )

 

Si, if you like it that much you could always do my 6.5x47 brass for me???

 

And beleive me i do not let any old body play with my brass

 

Keep it going fella,s

 

Darrel

[Si-Snipe]

Si, if you like it that much you could always do my 6.5x47 brass for me???

 

And beleive me i do not let any old body play with my brass

 

Darrel

 

Ooooh Darrel - you little flirt.

[Si-Snipe]

This little trick i picked up from a chap that used to do a lot of shooting at 700 yrds,,

He noticed that there was a difference in his group due to one lot of brass with heavy and one lot with light neck tension????

 

This is similar to what I do and I also know Rich does it. I seat all the bullets and 90-98% of them are exactly the same tension. There would be well below 90% after 4th load without annealing with my loads. Over the chrono tight necks can be seen as increased velocity as we know. So normally if I load 50 6.5x47 rounds I will usually get between 1-5 foulers or sub 400yd as I call them that were slightly higher neck tension.

[Alycidon]

I m alos using a drill , extension bar and socket, did my first batch for 7 secs in butane, they went a slightly red, one crushed on resize but that was teh first one and may have been down to a wrongly set die. Done another 30 odd yesterday for about 10 secs, necks went blue as decribed> I found it easier to see the change in the dayllight. Just got to FF and resize them and see where we are.

 

A

[The_Dogge]

Does anyone crimp their ammo? What is the thinking on this? does it uniform the neck tension as claimed?

[Guest richness]

Thanks that means a lot

Couple things: it's dead easy to check for a possible over-annealing. Just pinch the neck with your nails. It should be firm like all the others. If it dents too easily you overdid it and went to the glowing red neck stage which is too much.

And WRT batching, yes ANYTHING out of the ordinary and it's in the sub 300y pile. Only the very best ammo for those long targets ....

[Si-Snipe]

I just wanted to add guys. Don't be too worried about producing beautifully annealed cases like the Lapua factory cases. I tried annealing with brasso polished cases and using direct sunlight for my last batch that I shot on Sat. It seemed to take longer before I noticed the colour change and resulted in more annealing than usual and they cases looked a very vivid/wonderful colour. They looked very impressive. After shooting them on Sat I found that the POI was slightly lower than my other batches which would explain the over-annealing resulting in lower velocity due to softer bullet hold. I didn't notice any significant loss in accuracy (it was 25mph+ by the end of the day)and I was shooting with 8+MOA which was still not enough at 700yds but the drop difference at that range was notcicable. In fact a drop of 30 f/s would have given me the result I experienced on the day (.25MOA more required) which isn't out of the question from what we have seen with the effects of annealing.

Lesson learned for me - keep everything consistent - especially the light and technique used for the annealing. Of course this is the advantage of the machine, but in fairness this is the first time I have slipped up, after lots of successful batches with excellent results.

Cheers,

Si

[Guest richness]

I just wanted to add guys. Don't be too worried about producing beautifully annealed cases like the Lapua factory cases. I tried annealing with brasso polished cases and using direct sunlight for my last batch that I shot on Sat. It seemed to take longer before I noticed the colour change and resulted in more annealing than usual and they cases looked a very vivid/wonderful colour. They looked very impressive. After shooting them on Sat I found that the POI was slightly lower than my other batches which would explain the over-annealing resulting in lower velocity due to softer bullet hold. I didn't notice any significant loss in accuracy (it was 25mph+ by the end of the day)and I was shooting with 8+MOA which was still not enough at 700yds but the drop difference at that range was notcicable. In fact a drop of 30 f/s would have given me the result I experienced on the day (.25MOA more required) which isn't out of the question from what we have seen with the effects of annealing.

Lesson learned for me - keep everything consistent - especially the light and technique used for the annealing. Of course this is the advantage of the machine, but in fairness this is the first time I have slipped up, after lots of successful batches with excellent results.

Cheers,

Si

 

I too have just experienced this - very very clean brass is harder to spot the annealing. Try removing the carbon off the necks and then doing it but don't go too mad with the ultrasonic cleaner before annealing.

Also i found it easier yeaterday when doing 125 204r cases to actually watch the SHOULDER for the annealing ring moving down. Fixate too much on that little neck and you may actually miss the ring as it passes the shoulder. Or that what i found i was doing yesterday - it's much easier to watch the shoulder for the ring and then quench as soon as you do.

Good shooting bud; sorry i wasn't with you this time. 1cl at 700y - could have been pressure/temperature too? (or your raggedy mount?)

[Si-Snipe]

Good shooting bud; sorry i wasn't with you this time. 1cl at 700y - could have been pressure/temperature too? (or your raggedy mount?)

 

I began the day shooting with the older batch annealed 2 weeks previous and they were spot on elevation. I am fairly certain I am correct in my assumption. I will test again when I'm next out as I have 15 of the heavily annealed rounds and I'm making 50 with the cases I annealed this morning. Will be interesting to know.

I was watching the case necks this morning in the usual light and after 3-4 seconds the case neck looks like it begining to 'tarnish' with a browny apprearance. This then turns to a dark blue (it is sometimes hard to tell its a blue colour) but just be concerned with the dark colour filling the neck. The ring that moves down the shoulder is a good point Rich as it seems to coincide with the neck being fully annealed. Cases fresh from the tumbler seem to be easiest to see with no need for serious polishing.

Also after the annealing and the cases quenched mine always appear to be a pale pink in colour around the neck with the line coming down to just below the shoulder even when the flame cone is centred on the middle of the neck. I'll get some pictures of the over-annealed brass and the ones I gave just done. It may help.

Si