Big Al

Heres my two, Safi on the left is now 9yrs old, her daughter Maggie on the right is now 6yrs old. Had it not been for CV-19 Maggie would have been close to having her own litter now and we would have kept a bitch to maintain the family line.

Murphy is a belter. I have a couple of working cockers, they are hard to beat as an all round family/working companion.

I think there is a lot more important aspects that go into building an accurate rifle than the action but if you have a bad action then the gun will always be bad no matter what else you do. Thankfully bad action are rare. Although dad actions are rare they do exist from time to time, its usually more to do with inconsistent ignition than trueness and it can be very difficult to identify. I have also read about inconsistent custom actions that with fairly simple testing were established as the problem and with a small amount of work could be remedied. Ive shot with both custom and modified factory actions in long range benchrest and I couldn't split the two in terms of accuracy or results. Of course the term accurate is also a bit of a loose term as accuracy in PRL or FClass is different to Benchrest. There are lots of things that go into the mix when it comes to accuracy, the barrel, the person who chambered it and built the gun, the stock, the bedding, the trigger, the load development and then the shooter himself on the day. All of these things are more important in my opinion than the action itself if its known to be good. Exactly what difference if any a custom action would bring to the same rifle (all other things being equal) is hard to say. That said when your going to invest heavily in time, money and effort to shoot competitively the difference between using a Rem700 action and a top quality custom action might be £1000 or approx 25% of the total build cost. In my experience most people will go the custom route just to apply the belt and braces approach to what they are doing. As Vince rightly says, if you can pic up a decent second hand custom action its makes the cost differential much smaller. However, if your budget only runs to a factory action then dont let that stop you competing. Try and find someone to build you a gun that wont play the action snobbery card and will help you get the best they can out of your budget.

Now Ive said it twice already but this time it really is 'over and out' from me on this thread, there is nothing more I feel I can contribute that is useful. Information has been exchanged, people are old enough to read it and make their own calls on what is useful to them and what isn't. Happy Lockdown everyone 😘

Interesting observation I made last night about moderators piling in en masse to back each other up, give it enough time and it always happens.

Come on Ronin, your just not seeing this all at, the answer to your question lies in the answer I already gave you. Are you not seeing or or are you choosing to ignore it? Heres a simplified version for you. There isn't a simple answer to your question, it depends entirely on the shape/size of the particular rifle chamber which in turn has dictated the exact shape/size of the brass that you now say needs to be resized .001". Then the same applies to the FL sizing die you have, different internal die shapes and sizes will have different effects on different pieces of brass, the permutations are endless hense my original point that close measuring reveals answers. If you think I haven't covered this comprehensively enough why dont you put provide us with the answer to you question, I assume you know?

Terry, with respect its clear by what Ive written that at no time have I suggested my method is the only one in the universe. Its not even my method, its basic measuring that far more reloaders than myself take notice of. As for aspersions, none of those here, I have simply pointed out facts. I have replied in detail because my opinions were challenged, how else does someone reply unless you want five word grunts that help nobody? You know fine well threads develop from an original post often to many pages and for as long as there is a point to discuss or debate I will do that, its my right as much as anyones on any forum unless of course I end up banned for it. There is a pattern here which is talked about widely outside of this forum and that is one of moderators ganging up on people if things aren't going their way, it becomes tiresome and is one of the main reasons I dont post here much. I will leave it at that.

This is just the dogmatic reply I have been talking about, clear as mud and utterly useless in many situations while teaching people nothing. In light of the discussion why waste your time with such a feeble contribution Terry?

Did you read everything that was written thoroughly enough and understand it before you entered this discussion? With respect it doesn't seem so to to me, it seems like you booled in to slap me down for suggesting measuring cases at .200" was either a bad idea or at best pointless because we couldn't do anything about it, now your struggling to dig yourself out of the hole you have made for yourself. I said earlier I was done but to be honest your making it so easy for me to look good that I might as well continue since its lockdown and it will most likely bring me some extra work. You seem fixated on a particular scenario and its stopping you seeing the bigger picture. Nobody in this discussion said anything to suggest resizing at .200" was more important than headspace and that it should be pursued above all other things, especially safety. Dies are often sloppy mass produced things, other times they can be very tight, especially if the rifle has a sloppy chamber. Even a custom barrel is no guarantee of avoiding a sloppy chamber either through some builders being ignorant to what reamers should be doing or by polishing marked chambers to clean them up instead of re-cutting them. Rifle chambers are probably as bad in terms of size relative to spec as dies so getting good brass fit isn't always easy and many people are just in the dark as to know where the problems lie. The scenario you are hanging on to above is only one scenario and in that case maybe the reloader might not get his body resized safely by 0.001" if his shoulder is already heavily touching the bottom of the die and the fit is good with both shoulder angles at exactly the same angle. As you suggest he might end up pushing his shoulder way back and risk case head separation due to excessive headspace. But that is only one of many scenarios so should we avoid doing anything for fear of one such scenario? In one of many other different scenarios Ive also seen what can happen when you reach the point where effective sizing happens at the .200" mark and shoulder bump length actually grows! Think of the brass like a balloon, you squeeze the bottom, what happens to the top? it grows! So how can that be if it was already touching at the shoulder you might ask? The answer is tolerances in reamer making for both dies and chambers. Let me explain even though it pisses me off to teach you stuff you should really know since you come across as all knowing. Take a typical chamber reamer and measure the shoulder angle using some proper measuring gear like I have access to and you will see its rarely 30 degrees if that is the spec, or 23 or 40 or whatever its meant to be. Ive seen reamer shoulder angles out by one degree quite often and 30 minutes is nothing. I even had a UK reamer maker supply me with a 22/250 reamer where the shoulder was ground wrong by 2 degrees and I sent it back. He initially denied there could be anything wrong with his first class product but once enlightened he acknowledged the mistake and gave me a refund, I would never buy from him again as the man is a fool. The more you look at reamers the more you realise many of them are shite, thankfully my current supplier makes them bang on the money every time, he has the measuring capabilities to check and the machinery to hold the right tolerances. OK, back to the case that grew in shoulder bump length when it was squeezed at the bottom, this was clearly as a result of the chamber shoulder angle and the die shoulder angle being quite different. Take a scenario where there is a discrepancy on tolerance of 30 minutes in opposing directions between the reamer that cut the chamber and the different reamer that cut the die. Overall you have an angle discrepancy of 1 degree, thats plenty of room for additional brass movement in an upward direction when pushed hard enough. It would happen with even less never mind 1 degree as many should bump gauges only pick up on a sharp single datum surface that can easily be moved in this example. It doesnt go downwards because the web is too thick and strong to accept whats being forced around, instead it goes upwards as the route of least resistance and Ive seen shoulder bump length grow by as much as 0.003" before when the .200" mark is resized a couple of thou. All this by simple observation and measurement and no daft forces applied with the press. So where does all this bring us? Well, it shows some people just how closely I look at the work I do and it shows that you dont look at things with the same level of detail or distrust in the tooling you are given as I do. To be fair though I doubt you would ever question that your reamers weren't what they should be because your experience in engineering is tinkering in your shed in the garden shed, mine was once at the sharp end where we checked everything as mistakes could be extremely costly. Checking our fired brass and taking measurements (which was what this discussion was about) does no harm, I just tried to offer an insight into it from my perspective and people seem grateful for that. The more someone knows by measuring the more they can improve their reloading, the more chance they can see if the sizing die they have is actually a good match for the chamber they have and in many cases then can them improve the die themselves or give it to someone who can improve it for them or buy another in the hope its a better fit. Whats the problem with all that I wonder?

You really are up yourself lad. Give people information and let them decide if they are capable, are you the reloading police now as well? I will leave you to have the last word here as I really dont have the time to go back and forth with you. The good thing about forums is that the people will read and make their own minds up and they will take from it what they will.

Earlier in this thread I spoke about people quoting dogmatically or being to lazy or not well researched enough to know the truth. Nothing you are saying here falls outside of this description and to be honest nothing you have said appears in the slightest bit helpful to the original poster or the lads who have engaged in the discussion. To me at least, you come over as "this is all a waste of time and just do what Alex Wheeler says". Its seemed to me that you had read the thread and decided to put your foot down with authority based on being utterly unhelpful or perhaps because your a moderator, who knows? That said it certainly wouldn't be the first time you have sniped at stuff Ive said before and you do see to have a habit of questioning other peoples ways, I saw it with another rifle builder only recently and again you were put in your place. When I joined this forum 6yrs ago I asked lots of questions here and in lots of other places as well. I became interested in long range shooting 6yrs ago and the only way to learn is to ask, something Im not afraid to do. Something significant I did learn though from all the questions was just how many people didnt really now the answers and so out came the same old dogma, stuff that I have since proven to myself to be inaccurate through my own thorough testing and competition successes. I have never claimed to know secrets other rifle builders dont but then from time to time one or two surprise me by revealing just how little they really do know. As for building the rifles and then things like custom dies. I use basic good engineering practice, stuff I learned years ago as an apprentice and and developed as my trade and measuring is key to everything. Precision engineering is not something new to me, not something Ive dabbled with out of the shed for a while as a sideline. My background is toolmaking, look it up. Reloading dies are just simple things that dont take much understanding, thats why I was surprised at your comments as you dont seem to get it. The method you champion in the video from Alex is fine, its good advice to cover the basic aspect of head spacing . Alex is a lad a bit like myself in that he is relatively new to rifle building and it wasnt that long ago he asked lots of questions as well. I have corresponded with him at length and interestingly he shares a similar outlook to myself in that he doesnt buy into the dogma either, preferring to test extensively and draw his own conclusions from that, I like his attitude and he has made a good name for himself. In relation to the video, if the sizing die thats being used is a decent match for the rifle chamber then that method works well and Im fairly sure that was all Alex was trying to show. He was showing what the 'touch' or 'zero' point of headspace felt like then bumping the shoulder back from there his desired amount. The point he was making was that to just dogmatically (theres that word again!) bump the shoulder of a fired case by 0.002" as Ive read here and on so many other places online just wasnt an accurate way to do it, in that I agree entirely. However, that method alone isn't foolproof if your resizing die is sloppy and not resizing sufficiently at the .200" mark. If a case has swollen, particularly with a high pressure charge it can quite easily give a false impression that the drag on the bolt handle is the headspace when in fact its the .200" area of the case body that is still tight in the chamber. So what does the inexperienced guy do then? He bumps the shoulder a little more thinking that this is his problem area only to find the bolt still drags, so a little more and a little more until eventually he has bumped the shoulder heaven knows how much before the bolt finally slips down of its own accord. Unbeknown to the chap it was always the .200" mark that was too big and by the time he has sized that part of the case he has actually pushed the shoulder so far back he is at risk of getting case head separation. All this because he didnt take some basic measurements with a simple tool easily made! What I have said is that to measure gives the reloader knowledge, with knowledge comes options. If the sizing die isn't working properly then measurements will tell you that, you dont need a cast of the chamber to know the chamber shape and dimensions, your fired brass will tell you all you need if you know what your looking for. Im amazed you think you need the chamber reamer or a chamber cast to know this? how dark is it over there? Popsbengo gives a good example earlier in this thread about how measuring like I suggest has confirmed something that happened to him recently yet he wasnt sure how, know he knows how. Ive highlighted your suggestion of my advice leading to a dangerous situation with headspace, again Im struggling how you come to this conclusion? Ive explained what a clicker feels like and if your not getting them then you dont need to be worrying about sizing at the .200" as much as at the shoulder, if you are then you do if you want a bolt that cycles smoothly. To think you should only look at one measurement at the shoulder and ignore the case body is just daft and stinks of the old dogma Im so tired of reading.

Dont you still charge people to build rifles for them? Is this really the sum of your knowledge or are you just fooling with us? I cant imagine how life in the dark like this must be.

You could have datum points in as many places as you want Pops, each is just giving you an accurate means of comparing your internal chamber dimensions with the resized dimensions of your brass. From a practical point of view on a taper if you knew the measurements in three places at say .200" from the bolt face and maybe 0.050" back from the body/shoulder junction and again one in between the two you will then be able to see how your sizing die is shaping your brass relative to your chamber. Sounds like as you say the Hornady die brought your brass back to a place where the Redding die could then control it. 👍

The .200 mark is a nominal distance up the case from the bolt face where case body diameter and in turn chamber fit can be measured and then controlled by resizing. People can make their own measuring tools like the one I showed quite easily, even a flat bottom hole in a block of wood or plastic will do, it doesnt have to be exactly .200" just thereabouts. The important factor is having a flat surface to reference your calipers on to provide repeatable measurements. The main issue with undersizing a case in the .200" region is poor primary extraction sometimes referred to as clicking or the cases become known as clickers. Clickers can even be a false indication of pressure as the initial bolt lift is stiff and sometimes sticks at a point towards the top where a little jolt of the bolt handle upwards is needed to break free the case from the chamber. The problem is in fact that the case in the .200 area is too close a fit in the chamber and so when it expands it doesnt expand much so in turn contracts less than is required, has too tight a grip on the chamber walls and doesnt extract easily without the 'click'. A properly sized case should expand under firing and then contract enough to be easily extracted with no 'grip' on the chamber walls. In a fire once field/hunting rifle scenario its not as big an issue as a quick fire benchrest rifle where minimum disturbance of the gun on the bags is critical but because we can control these things I would say why not? It only takes a little measuring to see whats going on with your brass. The problem that can occur though is factory made dies are sometimes too sloppy to size your brass enough in the .200" region. On the other hand if it is sizing too much you should feel it on the press and if you measure the dimensional changes you could polish out your die with some quite basic tools or get someone with a lathe to do it for you. None of this is rocket science and it can all be done with quite basic tools and a bit of common sense.

I was asked a while ago now to build a .416 Barrett for the 2021 KO2M in France. Parts have been on order and are starting to arrive, I will detail the build on my FB page when I get started with it. The barrel will be finished at 40" and its 1.75" in diameter, parallel profile, bullets are 500 & 550gr over approx 200gr of powder. Cant say Im looking forward to the load development ☺️

I think something else worth bearing in mind is exactly how much a thousandth of an inch is in terms of measurement and movement. I do believe there are a lot of people who understandably dont work in measurement increments like this on a daily basis and so can get overly concerned with what they see. I remember a chat I had with a well regarded shooter about the tenths that his digital caliper would show, the fourth decimal ie 0.0005" which is half of one thou. He had no idea it was as about one twelfth of the thickness of the hair on his head. I think he was quite relieved to find that the last column of his calibers didnt really matter as much as he thought it did, it had been driving him mad for years. 😄

I think this last bit hits the nail on the head Dave. Any reloader with a mind to can measure their fired and then resized brass and get a very good idea of how effectively their dies are working. Neck diameter, shoulder bump length (headspace) body diameter just after the shoulder and then at the .200" mark are all easily measured, with a few tweaks here and there with their factory dies they can make good ammo. Its not uncommon to see a factory die that is too long to bump a shoulder and that squeezes the life out of the base, Ive many times removed as much as 40 thou from the bottom of a factory die and its made a world of difference. Usually its more in the 10-30 thou range and the inside can often be polished out as much as 5 thou in certain parts. Anyone who has proven through measurement that their factory die is squashing their brass way too much compared to its fired (chamber) dimensions can quite easily polish/open up the inside of their die with as simple a tool as an electric drill and a piece of 8mm or 10mm dowel and some emery paper. Polish a bit, resize and measure, repeat as required. Something that has made me smile when it comes to case to chamber fit is the number of times Ive seen seen simply amazing groups while fire forming. Cases like the 6BR get blown way out of shape when pushing a Dasher shoulder forward 0.100" or the 6BRA and all other Ackley Improved designs that push the shoulder forward to 40 degrees. Ive shot consistently tiny groups while fire forming my own 6BRA brass that Ive never improved upon in load development. One barrel during fire forming shot 29.5gr of N150 under a 105VLD into remarkably small groups, by pure chance I must have hit on very close to the harmonic the sweet spot for powder and seating depth. As for what exactly constitutes overworking in terms of our brass, the effect it would have on brass life and also accuracy I honestly dont know, but in truth I also wonder if anyone else really knows? If Im sizing my brass 3 thou here and there I wouldn't be unduly worried.

Something I found from my own experiences both shooting and building competition rifles is there is so much dogma out there. A guy wins and so everyone hangs on his every word, his thoughts become Gospel and those who are afraid or to lazy to explore outside of these 'devine principles' just believe it and then do it and repeat it for the rest of their lives. Im only interested in the truth, not 'my own made up truth' or 'someone else's truth' but the real truth, stuff I can see and measure with my own eyes and verify with a level of testing that takes chance and coincidence out of the equation. I did well at long range benchrest for the short while I competed, I made my own dies to resize my brass. In the beginning everything I read revolved around concentricity in both the rifle chamber, the resized brass and the closeness of the fit between cartridge and chamber. The idea being that it introduced the bullet to the lands in the most concentric way possible. With my own dies I was able to control brass sizes consistently to within half a thou easily and from 60 resized pieces I could easily select 40 for the competition that were identical, the other 20 were +/- half to a thou of my desired shoulder bump length and so I used them as foulers. What I found from my own thorough testing at both 100 and 600 yards as well as in competition was that my rifle much preferred a slacker case in the chamber, if my shoulder was pushed 3 thou back and my .200" size was 2 thou under fired case size my rifle shot better than if I was stuffing closely fitting and 'lightly worked' cases in. Of the things a shooter has control of (after he has taken delivery of a rifle that has all the hardware aspects closely controlled for him in the build) without any doubt proper load development is the most significant factor, yet I see it taken far too lightly far too often. Proper load development that is properly verified (not just shooting a screamer and calling things good because you must have pulled the others yourself) paying close attention to your barrels harmonics with powder charge and seating depth are the keys to accuracy, I would say they are 90% of what the shooter can control with the other 10% being brass prep. Remember, once everything is done ultimate accuracy depends on how good/consistently the shooter himself can shoot. If you take what I call the 5% rule (that only 5% of people who try to do anything truly excel at it) then thats 95% of shooters who look for reasons other than themselves as to why they are not winning and thats why this dogma spreads faster than an Australian bush fire.

Like I said earlier, dont believe everything you read. 0.002" is nothing in terms of case growth on your brass in any area, stretching and pushing it back every firing wont do your brass any harm and will make your bolt closing and extraction much nicer and more efficient. Measuring your brass resizing when it comes out of the die and then and then its growth after firing is what you need to do, then armed with this knowledge you can make appropriate decisions. Growth and resizing at the .200" mark on a case is well worth measuring as well as shoulder bump, its easy enough to do with a relatively simple tool.

Have you measured the difference between a fired case and a resized case at the .200" mark? thats .200" up from the bolt face. Dont get hung up on what you might have read, its not always accurate. Why not just full length them with the shoulders bumped a couple of thou and go shoot the gun, I doubt you will see any difference in your accuracy and you will benefit from easier bolt close and nicer extraction.

Still for sale, open to sensible offers.

Bedding a rifle properly (I say properly in terms of making sure it has only a neutral/positive effect on your accuracy) is well within your capabilities. Like so many things in life sometimes its made out to be some mysterious dark art that you must pay others for. Anyone with a basic level of DIY competence and some relatively basic tools can bed a rifle right if they take a bit of time to think about whats involved. If you have access to a vertical mill and a lathe it certainly makes the job a lot easier though, as a tradesman I would expect it to be fairly run of the mill work. Once upon a time I had never bedded a rifle but the skills needed are 1st year apprentice stuff, add a bit of thought, patience and some practical dexterity and you will be fine. Devcon 10112 which you can buy easily online is fine for bedding, I use it on all my builds and Ive never had a gun that hasn't shot well with a Devcon bedding job. Aluminium pillars make sense and then it gets down to the small personal things some guys believe make a small difference. Use something like Mirror Glaze as a release wax or even Kiwi Neutral shoe polish works fine and then there are other release agents, again Ive never had one even close to sticking with three coats of Mirror Glaze or Kiwi. At the end of the day your casting a mould of your action into your stock, its hardly rocket science. If you need any further info drop me a line and we can have a chat.

I find the discussion on 6.5s usually narrows down to the 6.5x47 Lapua and the 6.5 Creedmoor Terry. If its about killing things then both will do that as good as the other. There is the argument that the Creedmoor has a bit more speed but others would argue the 47 has the edge on accuracy and fast misses are useless. From a competition perspective I think its easier to separate the two. I have only built three 6.5x47s with the sole intention to be benchrest rifles and all three have won at both 600 and 1000yds. I hold the 1000yd UKBRA small group and aggregate records with 2.778" and 5.5" and Darrel holds the UKBRA 600yd small group and aggregate records with his recent 0.944" and 1.8", I also built a rifle for Simon Mearns that won its share of comps and held the 600yd small group record at around 1.1" before Darrel lowered it to just over 1" and then again to his current 0.944" I haven't tested a 47 and a Creedmoor back to back to benchrest standard but the fact that I also dont know of anyone in the US benchrest scene that is shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor with any success suggests to me its been tried and hasn't cut the mustard. The 47 started life as 300yd competition round and then people started stretching its legs right out to 1000yds with success. Ive heard some people say that the 47 isn't big enough to shoot the heavy for caliber 140gr bullets and above. My own experience is that it will shoot the 147gr bullets just fine with the highest levels of accuracy, its ok pushing them harder with a Creedmoor and demonstrating impressive ballistics but if they dont all group closely then its of no interest to me. Ive built and shot enough 47s to be certain that when it comes to accuracy and consistency a well tuned one will take some beating. As for the 47 (or any other case for that mater) being this magic caliber that always shoots small and is easy to tune Im not as sure, every barrel is different and all need to be treat as individuals and given what they want as opposed to what you want them to shoot. Good load development and a high degree of shooting consistency is needed to get any load really well tuned and more importantly repeatable. In that respect then I wouldn't say its any easier to tune a 47 than any other well known accurate case. Here is an example that will always stick in my mind from a couple of years ago. I had four 6.5x47 rifles to build from scratch, all were using 4 groove .256"/.264" Bartleins from the same batch of barrels, all were 8 twists. Over the course of about three months during the summer all four rifles were given to Simon Mearns for load development, Simon is meticulous and if a gun has the capability to shoot small he will exploit it. The first three all shot 140gr Berger Hybrids (from the same batch) into sub 0.25" five shot aggregate groups. Each was running very similar velocities and the charge weights were within 0.2gr and the seating depths were within 0.005" of each other. The fourth rifle wouldn't shoot that same batch of Bergers for toffee, groups were more around the 0.4" aggregate. A change of bullet on that fourth rifle to Hornady 147 ELDX and that barrel came alive, it joined the other three in the sub 0.25" five shot aggregate club. Ive got a soft spot for the 6.5x47 so that would be my choice of the 6.5s if ultimate accuracy was your goal, I also think there is enough evidence out there to back my feelings up.

Sold

I dare say there will be little if any difference to a good Sako Quad assuming yours is performing as it should and you have found an ammo it likes, the difference in the P94S is its build quality. As for your fears of buying second hand which I can understand. Im quite well known in the rifle building world these days and selling you a rifle that didnt shoot wouldn't be good for an excellent reputation I have worked very hard to build. If you can shoot then you wouldn't be disappointed in this rifles accuracy. I found it preferred SK Standard and SK Match for best group accuracy but for rabbits I used Eley Subs and Ive regularly head shot rabbits at 100yds with a good rest and given still conditions. I remember taking a young lad out shooting rabbits, he had bought a .17 HMR as his first rifle because his dad had told him .22LRs were only good for 50yds. His first rabbit was headshot at 92yds, his second at 98yds. It was a nice still summer evening so it was possible to push the ranges a bit. I think I also got one at 110yds that evening, all of these were ranged and then dialled for with an 8-32x Sightron. If I keep reminiscing like this I can see me ending up keeping her! 😁