gbal

acm,yes-ish.The figuresare for SAAMI commercial loads-there are some 90 available in USA,not all here of course,though we may have a very few European that don't make it to USA. That's why I quote them-they are a ore level playing field,with standars pressures etc,which are unknown for reloaders. if at all possible,I'also quote them with comparable bullets,especially ones likely to be used by homeloaders -here mostly Vmax,and SMK for the heavier where no vmax is commercially available.Ditto VLD-not commercially loaded,I don't think-likewise some factory loads may have apecial powders,not generallly available...whatever-clearly there can be differnces....and I can't include all loadings,but try to give thebest,and avoid the worst....BC etc have small effects,esp at 200,even 300....fox distances. I did include the 'hot' proviso,I should have said 'home reloaded' as some load a tad cool (sensible,mainly-esp if accuracy is better-and I did specifically say accuracy (rifle /ammo precision plus shooter factors,including scope-tho that has some prcision eng issues too) was not included in ballistic data. The differences generallly remain smaller than sometimes assumed....nothing is eg 'flat'-except a lazer-and 50-100 fps make surprisingly little effective field differences.That said,under very benign conditions,a curved trajectory (all are) can be very consistent,and with accuracy,achieve an increased hit rate-but factor in a full WEZ analysis.....and closer to the truth emerges-small targets gets missed a bit. " I can get to 980 yards" really becomes "yes,but where exactly,980 yards away consistently?' -six yard box,yes,football...much less often,....add 'tennis ball' and all rigs will fail...........:-)...world records are done once...not often. But of course some of the fun may well be in trying to improve these rather well established wheels-though It's much more likely that radical innovations like fast twist/heavy bullets will cause a real stir-as it did with the 223rem (compare the 222,/223 rem mag,as commercially loaded. If anyone loves their 'flat shooting' standard 222rem -a sooper dooper little cartridge-then they are probably confusing 'over the moon',with being actually 'on the moon'..... gravity will not be denied;though velocity and BC can help a bit ;-) g

SAAMI ammo: 200y zero,drift at 200y (at 100 it's about 1-1.4 " high,and 1" drift for all,to a decimal): 204 32 vmax 4.1 40 vmax 3.3 223 40vmax 5.0 50vmax 4.7 55vmax 4.6 60vmax 4.6 69SMK 4.0 77SMK 3.6 22250 40vmax 4.4 50vmax 4.0 55vmax 3.9 243 58vmax 3.9 All the energies are above 650ftlb at 200y,some considerably-seems adequate on field results. It's unlikely there is any consistent/effective field accuracy differences on fox between these cartridges. (and of course,any could be hot loaded...without significant ballistic changes for purpose,and to 200y). At 400y,still 200 zero,the drop/drift is(MV and remaining energy added-same loads as above): 204 40vmax@3900 13/15 526ftlb 223 40vmax@3800 18/23 330 50vmax@3300 21/22 380 69SMK @2850 25/18 531 22250 40vmax@4150 14/20 410 55vmax@3680 16/17 536 243 58vmax @3750 15/17 627 Actual field accuracy is not always found to be the same as ballistics,but they are a guide...:-) Go choose ! gbal

What has helped in this wildcating is improved powders,and bullets that don't spin destruct. Newton was into it in 1912 (see Landis '22 varmint rifles' for the early pioneers,when it was new under the sun. Then Donaldson(1934 ish 22 Lightening);Gipson and Gebby in 1940s ( 22/250eventually) and of course the 220 Swift. The the 22/243 Middlestead class and 224 Clark (7-57 based).Plenty work too on the 22-06 variations (22-03 even) At least one '22/270' reported in SA managed 40G @ 4600 approx-the 22x64 Jim Carmichael's Cheetah (22-308) got 50g @4285,and there are reports (loud!) of 35g reaching 4999 (limit of chronos0-but here we may be also be pushing pressures,so don't try it at home.... barrel life of up to 1500 has been 'estimated'..... Ackley in 1960's got to 50g@4600;and there is the 22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer as a cautionary tale...let alone the 17 Flintstone Super Eyebunger,or 6mmThermos bottle (presumably quite a hot number..) The issues of course began to centre on bullet integrity at very high speeds of rotation-barrel life was just accepted as limited,and the understanding that beyond 400y (a long way for early varminters) BC just could not be ignored-so heavier bullets/larger caliber became the focus (these helped the 22-250 class too ). Bruce Potts reports on a 22-284 (or necked down 6.5-284). He got 3494fps with 75 g bullets,but another grain and a half powder added only 19fps,suggesting a peak. With 55g bullets,he managed 3950 fps before peaking out. Swift (SAAMI) 55g@3680 and BC .255 gives 164/94" drop/10mph drift for those 800y speculative walk ins. 243W (SAAMI) 55@3850 and BC .277 gives 133/77 for 800- a tad better but hardly laser (nothing is). 243w (SAAMI) 70@3450 BC .309 gives153/77 243 WSSM (SAAMI) 55@4060 BC.276 119/72 6.17 LSpitfire (SAAMI) 85@3618 BC.404 119/57 223 WSSM (SAAMI) 55@3850 BC.276 138/77 and so it goes....better by far (or near) to limit distances to nearer half the "PB/occasional hits" for sentient targets. Pure fun though,is not to be discounted by simple physics or comercial availability....though the latter is there-partly due to wildcatters! gbal

....bj....the 1905 Mannlicher Schoenauer 6.5 resolved the unreliable laser problem by making scope fitting a bit fiddly..even difficult...still managed to be king of the hill ..... .....it still does OK with a scope...but there are more fashionable-dare I admit-better options now,especially for strong young lads. :-) gb

Why is second focal plane inappropriate for a (long range) hunting rifle scope-or a long range scope in general ? I am not entirely convinced that FFP can't have a good reticule,though it won't be bettter than the best SFP ones,and tests have debunked the 'not accurate when magnification' changes SFP myths. I can't believe the old chestnut about 'ranging' with FFP is still seriously believed/held when LR laser rangefinders do it all so much better. On the other hand,the precision advantage of moa over mil might be a bit overstated-though 1/8 moa options is nice choice on the Swaroski x5. Most hunters choose SFP. Any chance of some coherent reasons rather than unsupported-though perhaps not unsupportable-opinions,that have substance for contemporary scopes (rather than those of decades ago)? I can 'see' superb glass is nice,but I can't say I have felt seriously disadvantaged by eg NF glass-given the other excellent features NF can have. I want to see my (small) target clearly,and put my aiming mark on it precisely (not just somewhere on top)...and have reliable turrets....now any 'top scope' should be able to do that,and some moderate ones get reasonably close (I mean around £800),and I can just about believe cheaper ones might....but not at 40x,which I like-and that magnification also excludes many of the really good ones (Swarovski and S&B eg-these two compensating somewhat with excellent optics....) That's where it's at for me...the NF give good enough opticals to make the high mag useable,enhancing at least the perception of precision,without any compromise on turrets,etc. The top end 'S&B' 5-25 class seem to have better glass-subjective but I accept- but fall behind on mag-with very small targets,that matters more to me....many scopes will do to 500yards,but at double that..it's a tad more demanding...you have to see your target.... Thank goodness there is a choice,and I can scrape by (buy?) without needing half a dozen scopes at nearly £3k each.....sounds more like a rifle price to me....or am I deluded? There is still time to get it right,but I'll need some good reasons-it's just a hobby,not an investment for the kids futures (anyhow,they can rough it with the NFs and get the Swarovski/March etc second hand in due course!) :-) gbal

"Swarovski X5 (i) Long Range Hunting Scope" reviewed for Sniper's Hide by Josh Keim (scout.com) is well worth reading. I'd not consider 'paying for the name' to be credible when Swarovski invests in new CNC,tooling and measuring equipment-because what they already had was not precise enough for this 5 year project scope. Admittedly,they didn't redesign the 'Hawk' badge,or the battery! £2700/$3400 is a lot of money for a scope,but it deserves to be evaluated properly for what it is (as do all the others). I don't find NF to be too disappointing,as long range scopes,but this Swarovski has some nice features,and quality glass. It is intended for LR and hunters,of course;judge accordingly-as Chris says. gbal

Indeed,and that only give parity with yesterdays 6.5x284,itself now well eclipsed by the hot sevens,and short magnums,and medium half magnums,and ...wait for next season! Maybe that route is a young man's prerogative-it's all gone "Litz up" since we /he got the numbers sorted...though that really just confirms what was already ...err "felt"...Newton works fore and aft ! We can take some comfort from evolutionary biology though,if physics disappoints-stags with only beta grade antlers,if that,can sometimes sneak in while the big alpha guys bust each other up...some ladies are apparently impatient.... I do like the 6BR,maybe more 'over the hill' rather than 'on the hill' though,where 'butch' clout still holds. :-) g

Brill, I gave the "specs" you need in my post. Best get a dental check out too -those "uber'-juggernauts must recoil a bit ! g

Napalmio,glad you are more sorted-yes,it can be a complex business-one key lesson I learned was to take all advice with a good look at what yo were trying to achieve,and whether it matched up to the advice giver's shooting. There hae been some developments in 308 bullets-to try to get the cartridge better at longer ranges (800+ to a bit ver 1000y). The route is improved BC,but that comes with increased weight (and bullet design).Some design 'improvements may well be so for dedicated cutting edge shooters,but the VLDs have a reputation for being a bit finicky-hence the Berger Hybrids,which are claimed to be much more tolerant-ie easier to get to shoot well. Some of this goes on in the shooting disciplines that are lilitedto the 308w cartridge-and even to the 'original' Palma weight 155g bullet. This is either some protection that your expensive chamber will not be outclassed within a season,or a restriction on progress-both are true.Open class F shooters take the unrestricted route,and the rapid progress ("space race') that ensued-it has to slow at some point (Mr Newton's laws come in)-so there are carridges that are much more potent than the 308w ( always were,but the emphasis has dropped markedly from the 'big boomers' (300 mags) which just try to outpower the wind,to the more shootable big 7s,and the 6.5/6s which reflect a differnt strategy-get off you shots in the same wind ,which makes rifle handling,and therefor recoil critical. "Must use (palma) 155g " apart-and there are still a few developments there-the 2156 eg,not as tolerant as the old 2155)-the 308 can be improved-beyond 6007 or so,with better BC/heavier bullets -hence the move upwards for 1000y shooting (to compete with the once bench mark,now outclasses,6.5-284 with 142g BC.585@3065fps,the 308 needs a 220g BC.627@2650,and that is considerable recoil-so the fast shoot strategy isn't on. For the club shooter,rather than national podium aspirant,the Sierra 2155 is a fine bullet (as are all the scenars-not sure about this armour piercing ability,but if it's a club rule...),and you might try a heavier Sierra for 1000,but it's double the faffing around,when the 155 isn't too bad....you will also notice the recoil in a factory rifle...you will anyhow,but heavy bullets will aggravate it. On that,keep your eye on any 6BR you see,a very competent smaller cartridge,the ballistic equal at least of 308w at club performance (and it has world records at distance to 1000y),and so much nicer.easier to shoot....if we had less wind in UK,it would be more popular (actually,it needs more-one-moderate priced factory rifle too!). Particularly among experienced (dated!) older club members,these new fangled catridges (etc) are either unknown,or 'cannot compete' with the 308w. Just behind the times,but don't say so until you have outshot them,and let them try your rifle. A 155 (Sierra) 308w factory rifle can perform well to 600+,and will do for occasional longer sessions (where wind reading is the issue anyhow),at reasonable costs.If it can shoot around 1/2 moa,it will be good enough for most steels to 600.And be fun. gbal

Mark, Not sure I'll be able to do this photo malarky-as you note I prefer 1000 words (at least) but the 'more reply optons' button comes up for me after scrolling through the posts,past the last one (after the AI ad) to the blank quick reply box,and in the bottom right corner,next to Post -there it is More Reply Options

There was a time (pre Ballistic Tips)....and still is...where much hunting ammo wasn't/isn't hollowpoint,but still is designed to expand,and does; the soft lead /spitzer/designs,eg.Some 'petal' solid copper designs too 'peel back' in the classic mushroom shape.Hollowpoints are likely to deform on impact,more than real solids (how much deformation can vary,of course). Hollowpointing may in some bullets be designed for stability/accuracy-"target bullets". The key phrase in the FAC guidance is 'designed to expand'. The grass may be greener on the other side,of course-but that is often due to the wearing of rose coloured spectacles. Things are seldom black and white,yet the law etc must try to delineate-or at least guide the wise. gbal

"Less buck for your bang" and has BAAMBI certification.

Hmmmm....sounds more like a prostectomy. For most members of the Blank Club,with tie, weight may be slighty reduced but trajectory improves,as Quick Load predicts.Safe shooting is a bonus.

There are plenty 'properly' calculated lists,such as the Preppers Blueprint (nutrition)-the prepped prepper will have this tatooed on forearm-its for 2 adults,2 children,survival calories(1250 per day) for 1 month:all in pounds: grains 75 dairy 24 sugars 15 legumes/veg 14 Fats/oil 3 That's some 131 lb of stuff to carry- a trolley would increase your haul of course,if any left. Ball park- it varies in detail depending whether it's a short or long term emergency....being moderately active-perhaps wild food gathering needs 2000 cals/day-that's a fair load of berries etc. Booze is too heavy,fags might be useful barter-if you can be callous. Matches ,though,will be handy. gbal

Yes,reality check using decent samples overall. 1/4,1/2,1 inch at 50/75/100y........Eley and Lapua (just which varies very slightly) Then there are the rest-though many will hit very small barn doors pretty reliably,just not that small. No surprises,quality manufacture/control shows. Subs not included,though. Agreed,your rifle isn't a Bleiker,so you probably won't get such good results.It's an ammo test. gbal

Very nice indeed-tempted to check your left hand stick for the teeniest bit of flexing! :-)

It's 'try and see'; but I would not expect any sub sonic to approach even the more modest priced Eley/RWS/Lapua 'club' grades-the names change-and certainly not the premium Tenex/similar grades. The quality control just isn't there...and the sub is probably intrinsically less accurate,as currently made? I'd start with the above three manufacturers (Eley,RWS,Lapua),and would not dismiss match grade ammo,if you really need quietish moderated performance,especially at longer 22rf ranges (75+y eg)-not sure HP subs would be very different at the low velocities remaining at such distances,and accuracy may be more reliable... gbal

Hmmmm cf post8 ...... I might be able to use this for my next 'good mummy test'....:-)

Luke,I agree-though 4 year old coke really should not be served to your son's new girlfriend-though her tact in rejecting it might be an interesting guide! Anyhow,the USDA are quite specific on 'best buy' etc labelling,it's a flavout advice not an edible advice,for many canned foods. "Fresh' or "frozen' of course-ie 'not canned' need to be taken more seriously-the nose test at the very least. "use by" in UK may well be rather naughty,implying some health risk if extended? It is a pain trying to store new cans at the back of your shelves-though probably just easier to resort every 6months-way beyond any short term 'prep span'. cheers (spirits seem OK) gbal

How hungry will you be? Taste may deteriorate (as in 'best before' and 'use by'),but if properly stored (cool,dry) ,unopened and undamaged ,tins of commercially canned food (inc tuna) will remain safely edible for an indefinite time.USDA(Dept Agriculture). Should see you through most temporary supply glitches.... Sprite seems to last 6m+,coke not 3 years!

Dave,do you think he'll buy an RP accent? ( I had a professor colleague who could speak eighteen european languages,and had nothing interesting to say in any of them) :-)

Brillo-who knows when the old Sierra 155 will become a collectors item,at serious costs-or go out of production and be much sought after-the problem for relatively new shooters is that they don't need the 'temperamental' aspects of some VLD etc bullets,but also ,alas,the cost of Berger hybrids.....I'd not worry too much,unless aiming for competition podium-with a supply of the old 155 sierras,which just work pretty good in most rigs. atb, g

Sorry,yes I mean the 2155 155g Serra (once called palma,before that label was transferred to the newer design for the 2156). The 2155 is reasonably priced,as in your post,and has won a lot of competitions (many of course rather restricted to 155 bullets! I have little doubt that the current Berger is better-but you ruled out the expensive options in your original post,quite understandably. Brillo has perhaps overlooked that parameter,cost,and I rather suspect most of the better performance is with rather more expensive rifles-as you concede-so we are hardly comparing like with like. I'd get a couple of hundred 2155,and if/when you are convinced they are not optimising your shooting,get one box of whatever is 'better' and see if it shows on your target,enough to compensate for the considerable price premium.Whats to lose? gbal