EU Beginner load development - 6.5creedmoor

[ronzi83]

Hello everyone ! I am new to forum and i am trying to get load development for precission shooting and/or  long range shooting. I got here by searching some info on powders and bullets . I am trying to get load development for my gun and lately i got so many cross advices i dont even know if i am loading it right. Till now i was trying to measure speed of my loads and also trying to do 0.2grain incresements. I started from low to where i could see marks on case from extractor (hi pressure).  But now some guys told me to not focus on speed, only to go load from min to max and doing 5 shoot groups with 0.2 grain incresement. Also i was told to neck size only 4mm of case neck , not whole from already fired case and not to FL size. I read i need to FL size on net to be every time consistance. Dono now who to listen. Also i was told to fill my case with powder and seat bullet in ( i am scared to do this), because burning will be more even and there will be less flyers or something, but problem with my gun is i have HUGE big headspace and thats why i dont even have whole bullet diameter seated inside.  

I have : 

Tikka ctr t3x 24" 1/8 

N550, N150 powders

123 scenar , 136 Scenar L and 139 scenar

Hornady LP and Lapua case SP

CCI primers BR2 LP and BR4 sp

Magnetospeed to measure speed

1x per week 100m range 

 

I dont want to go any USA or non EU powders/bullets since is pain in da...to get them or are very expensive. 

 

Anyone of you could give me some sugesstions? 

 

Best regards 

Greg

[VarmLR]

Yes...you are best advised being VERY careful with acting on some of that advice, which at worst could be dangerous and best is just confusing.

If you are new to this, a few words of advice which make things easy:

1.  Don't bother chasing the lands...find a good reloading manual and load to magazine length so that you have a decent wall length (rule of thumb is load in by one bullet diameter to start with or to mag length).  The Scenar is very jump tolerant and does NOT need to be loaded close to the lands;

2.  To start, forget the 4mm nonsense on nick sizing....FL size everything....KEEP IT SIMPLE!

3.  NEVER, EVER take the advice of someone who says "fill your case up!".  What I suspect might have been meant was that 100% or slightly less case fill ratio can result in more uniform burn due to more even distribution of powder which is neither compressed nor allowed to settle or be less uniformly distributed. However, this pre-supposes that you have an appropriate powder/bullet match in the first place.  The danger comes when you use a powder that may be on the fast side for the bullet and load above max recommended loads...never do this.

4.  Read this link for good advice on OCW which makes load development more economical and the results are proven reliable by most trying this method:  http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

Use the powder manufacturer's recommendations before listening to advice from those whose experience you are unsure of and in any case it is a sensible place to start.

In this case, use Viht's own load data (https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/) for minimum and maximum charge weights, and the OCW method to select the load intervals.  Take it from there.  Stay safe!

 

 

[ronzi83]

Thank you for you replay. I loaded till now around 800 rounds, mostly scenars and vv powders, but somehow couldnt get load. Basics i think i have it, but now i want to upgrade to focus also on details. I use QuickLoad but the burning rate there is just joke compare to what i get when reloading same imformation. I keep changing RA but just wont get me results. I am looking atleast 0.5 moa or less. Yes, that guy was talking bout powder burning even in case , more uniform. But probably that would work with some N560 powder , since is on slow side. Do you de prime before you do FL or you do it when you FL size? I am reading to go and screw out expender ball and to buy sinclair expender body die. I will try now n150 with 136L scenar and 2203 ogive/2800 coal. Will start from 38.5grains and increase it 0.2 till 40.5 

 

[VarmLR]

Simply take the fired brass, clean, and resize.  I clean, deprime, anneal and then resize.  Forget about the fads with removing expander balls etc etc or buying fancy dies (at this stage).  Before anyone slays me for this remark, it's meant in context of relative new comers to the sport and reloading where some things just don't matter as much as others and it's WAY too easy to get over complicated way too quickly without any real thought applied.    I get single figure ES and SD figures with basic FL dies and consistently.  Last week at 600 yds, I think I shot 5 or 6  V's in a row at 600m from brass simply FL resized using Redding Type S dies.

There's one or two on here who will tell you the same and that's that shooting discipline counts for more than the ammo in some cases.  Too many people seem to fret over minutia of reloading detail and pay scant attention to shooting technique and reading the environmental conditions (wind, temperature, local range factors etc etc).  There's little point in fretting when it counts for little at the shooting compared with other variables.

Best advice I can offer is stick with one bulet that'll shoot well, find a powder it likes, fine tune, keep things simple and shoot....a lot.  That and the experience gained is worth more than fretting over kit.

 

 

[snakeman]

38 minutes ago, VarmLR said:

Simply take the fired brass, clean, and resize.  I clean, deprime, anneal and then resize.  Forget about the fads with removing expander balls etc etc or buying fancy dies (at this stage).  Before anyone slays me for this remark, it's meant in context of relative new comers to the sport and reloading where some things just don't matter as much as others and it's WAY too easy to get over complicated way too quickly without any real thought applied.    I get single figure ES and SD figures with basic FL dies and consistently.  Last week at 600 yds, I think I shot 5 or 6  V's in a row at 600m from brass simply FL resized using Redding Type S dies.

There's one or two on here who will tell you the same and that's that shooting discipline counts for more than the ammo in some cases.  Too many people seem to fret over minutia of reloading detail and pay scant attention to shooting technique and reading the environmental conditions (wind, temperature, local range factors etc etc).  There's little point in fretting when it counts for little at the shooting compared with other variables.

Best advice I can offer is stick with one bulet that'll shoot well, find a powder it likes, fine tune, keep things simple and shoot....a lot.  That and the experience gained is worth more than fretting over kit.

 

 

 

+ 1.. all of the above... sage advice

[chaz]

Good advice there.

 

[ronzi83]

Thank you. Yes i upgrade my original stock of tikka ctr to KRG-x ray 2weeks ago and i can see a better results already. I reloaded yesterday from 38.5 -40.3 grains of N150 with lapua 136 scenar L. For each group (with 0.2 incresement) i made 4 loads and now i am waiting thursday to test it. 

Should i put magnetospeed on my barrel when testing groups or will effect on my OBT/barrel vibrations and group will not be real anymore ? 

 

Thank you

[Reloader54]

You talk of headspace,,   

Quote; but problem with my gun is i have HUGE big headspace and thats why i dont even have whole bullet diameter seated inside.Quote;

 

but then talk of bullet seating depth,  they are not the same.

 

seat bullet to c,o,a,l  

excess headspace is a whole different issue.

do you mean freebore, [see dia, below]

 

[Chanonry]

10 hours ago, VarmLR said:

Simply take the fired brass, clean, and resize.  I clean, deprime, anneal and then resize.  Forget about the fads with removing expander balls etc etc or buying fancy dies (at this stage).  Before anyone slays me for this remark, it's meant in context of relative new comers to the sport and reloading where some things just don't matter as much as others and it's WAY too easy to get over complicated way too quickly without any real thought applied.    I get single figure ES and SD figures with basic FL dies and consistently.  Last week at 600 yds, I think I shot 5 or 6  V's in a row at 600m from brass simply FL resized using Redding Type S dies.

There's one or two on here who will tell you the same and that's that shooting discipline counts for more than the ammo in some cases.  Too many people seem to fret over minutia of reloading detail and pay scant attention to shooting technique and reading the environmental conditions (wind, temperature, local range factors etc etc).  There's little point in fretting when it counts for little at the shooting compared with other variables.

Best advice I can offer is stick with one bulet that'll shoot well, find a powder it likes, fine tune, keep things simple and shoot....a lot.  That and the experience gained is worth more than fretting over kit.

 

 

Yes, again. Solid process

Shooting is a chain. We need all parts of the chain to be strong but having one part fantastically strong does not make the chain stronger. So a good load is important but if you can't shoot (or whatever) you will not see the benefit. In other words, get it to a level of performance that does what is needed then STOP and go work on something else.

The reloading issues (if any) are likely to be from doing things slightly differently from round to round rather than there being something wrong with the process itself. Good ammo comes from attention to detail at every step. Even the chamfer (got that t shirt). Detail !

Until recently my 'best' performing ammo was made with a Lee Collet Die. Other dies I have used have produced good results so its not the dies.

Making consistently loaded straight ammo to start with is the goal, tuning it (powder load and seeing depth) to your rifle is then what gives great results but we are dependent on the rifle and the shooter being able to shoot to that level of precision/accuracy to get useful feedback. Back to the chain...

[VarmLR]

I agree.  I think it's worth it for newcomers if a "Sticky" is made with basic reloading guide in as few words as possible to avoid the newcomer being put off by the plethora of options and complications, and to daw attention to the fact that it's just one part of a longer chain:

 

1.  Rifle and rifle fit;

2.  Terminal ballistics required (determine bullet and required velocity required for range based on availability);

3.  reloading....KISS (Keep it simple, stupid)....clean, deprime, anneal (if you use an annealer, otherwise....)...re-size, clean, chamfer & debur, clean primer pocket, prime, charge, seat bullet, shoot.

4.  Shooting: rifle hold, alignment of body/rifle, breathing, squeezing, follow through, consistency (including cheek weld positioning);

5.  Optics:  Base/rings;  optic quality including tracking, adjustment range, optical clarity and ret for precision;

6.  Reading and adjusting to environmental considerations;  developing records of previous shooting/conditions

7.  Calibrating applied ballistic solutions using actual drops;  developing first shot on target data and skills;

8.  Grouping techniques and reading/interpolation of shot groups.

There's a lot in that eight simple points to worry about so getting hung up over whether an expander ball is in or out, or the use of bushing dies over standard FL dies is drilling into detail that quite frankly matters less than your overall applied shooting skill set.  As Chanory states, solid process derived from practice and knowledge is what matters.

+1  Redoader54's comments...I think ronzi83, that you are referring to cartridge overall length to where the bullet is seated to the lands, not head space which is something else.

 

A general note of point:  reloading manuals are generally a good place to start learning and all of those use a COAL which is either SAAMI spec or magazine fit (ie well off the lands).  Unless using jump intolerant secant ogive or some hybrid ogive bullet designs, you do not need to be anywhere near the lands.  Load to what the manuals suggest and you won't go far wrong and they will result in accurate loads once you have found a charge that works, plus this takes another variable or worry out of the equation.  You simply do not need to be anywhere near the lands for Scenars for example, nor for the older Sierra Matchkings nor their TMK bullets for example.

The only reason I might load closer to the lands with these type of bullets is to increase available charge capacity, and that's it.

[ronzi83]

2 hours ago, Reloader54 said:

do you mean freebore, [see dia, below]

Problem i see with my reload (if i can call problem) is i have extremly long coal and my bullets are seating mayby only from .180 to .211 instead  of rule of bullet diameter .264. But some people say u get best precision with .005 or .010 of lance. I know each bullet likes different seating depth, but still 180-210 mayby is to little ? 

anneal, do you anneal it each time ? 

[VarmLR]

You misunderstand ronzi...you do NOT need to seat to the lands which is what I have tried telling you.  Seat to magazine length/reloading manual specified length.

Precision is NOT related solely to seating near the lands. In fact it has no dependence at all except perhaps where secant ogive bullet designs which do not jump as concentrically as tangent ogive designs such as your Scenars are concerned.  You need to do a little reading on reloading to understand the basics, but briefly, your rifle barrel harmonics affect precision, and you are looking for a charge weight that places the bullet, on exit, at a node where your barrel is on axis and not whipping around.  This charge weight is what matters, NOT your seating distance.  Precision is also a hell of a lot about loading AND shooting consistency. Loading to within 0.05 for a newcomer is asking for trouble. Get it slightly wrong and you can have a large pressure spike that close to the lands....take, or don't take the advice, but it remains, stay away from the lands and learn the basics before worrying about such things.  Precision doesn't come overnight...there is no recipe guaranteeing it.

[ronzi83]

2 minutes ago, VarmLR said:

You misunderstand ronzi...you do NOT need to seat to the lands which is what I have tried telling you.  Seat to magazine length/reloading manual specified length.

Precision is NOT related solely to seating near the lands. In fact it has no dependence at all except perhaps where secant ogive bullet designs which do not jump as concentrically as tangent ogive designs such as your Scenars are concerned.  You need to do a little reading on reloading to understand the basics, but briefly, your rifle barrel harmonics affect precision, and you are looking for a charge weight that places the bullet, on exit, at a node where your barrel is on axis and not whipping around.  This charge weight is what matters, NOT your seating distance.  Precision is also a hell of a lot about loading AND shooting consistency.

Got it. Thank you a lot. Will try to do that and will let you know how my groups will go and my load development jurney.

 

 

[Richiew]

Hi Ronzi

for what its worth I started with redding normal type dies and neck sizing after fire forming ,then moved to better quality forster dies and now trying neck bushing dies .checked some old ammo with the hornady lnl co-entricity gauge  which were made by the basic redding dies and all were less than 4 thou of runout/ straightness ,compared to the forster which gave less than 2 thou runout .

just goes to show that basic gear can produce great results . bullet seating for 308 cal I try to make sure that the part where the start of the taper of the boattail starts is seated in to the bottom of the neck where it joins the bottleneck part .have tried jumps of 30 -130 thou to the lands and have found no significant gains .. Enjoy the learning curve and as said find a combo that works then stick with it    cheers