.17HMR used for Foxes (the grey area)

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

what are everyones thoughts on this

trying to get a perspective as i read some people use them and some people dont

i have seem videos of people taking down a fox with a .17HMR with a body shot

what are the laws and what are the guidelines?

thanks in advance

everyones views and opinions are welcome

[baldie]

Have some respect for the animal and use a calibre big enough to kill it with a body shot. The .17 hmr is not suitable .

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

Have some respect for the animal and use a calibre big enough to kill it with a body shot. The .17 hmr is not suitable .

 

thats the camp i am in but i have read so many different stories and seen videos on youtube as well

 

thanks for the input baldie

[triggersqueezer]

i feel a hmr is fine for fox if you are head shooting a sub 100 yard on a still day.sadly i know too many people who would not stand there with a hmr and watch a 150 yrd fox walk by.if you are going out foxing you are better off with a bit more gun.that said i shoot a small farm in a built up area where foxes need getting rid but i would not use my 223.that is all sub 100 mind.

[gbal]

What you will not see are videos,you tube etc of failures with almost any cartridge.

What you will see is not necessarily representative of performance,even when successful.

 

It is therefore ,best regarded as regarded as inconclusive evidence.

 

One well accepted guide to suitable cartridges are their energy levels,as these have face validity,considerable field evidence, and are clearly measureable.At 100 and 200 yards,the following are typical ft lbs (there is some variation with bullet weight etc):

100y 200y

22lr hi vel 90 75

 

22 hornet 500 380

223 900 750

 

17HMR 140 75

 

It is very obvious that the two rimfires are nowhere near the centre fires in energy level.

It is also clear that the 17HMR is a bit better than the 22rf hivel at 100 y but not at 200.

 

What we do not have is a validated minimum energy level for fox lethality,especially on body shots.

 

What is very clear though is that the centre fires are much superior,and that would be hard to argue against for lethality.

 

Is 17 HMR enough?

 

We can only use field experience-not in itself a bad criterion at all.But we need to be careful-head shots cannot be just added into body shots.(the ethics etc are another matter,as in all marginal situations).

We would also have to have an agreed effectiveness ratio-a high one.The issue is not whether cartridge x can on occasions kill a fox as humanely as possible,but can cartridge x do it to a very high success level (90%+ maybe?).A second important consideration is whether there is some tolerance in the cartridge's performance for less that very good shot placement.

There are other considerations (is the cartridge overly and unacceptably powerful.) And some that are not defensible (cost,eg).

 

There is likely to be some controversy,in the absence of solid data,and validated criteria,for small specie,but perhaps we can do better than 50 shades of grey!!.

 

Gbal

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

Gbal

thnaks for the info

is there much difference between the .22WMR .and the .22LR and .17 HMR @ those two ranges in ft lbs?

[gaz6br]

I've shot a few foxes with the 17hmr and it does drop them if your not shooting at a silly range I'd say 120 yards max, mainly use it with night vision sat at the bait stations, sitting 100 yards away works well. But I'd never use it as a full time foxing gun.

[Swamp Donkey]

Gbal

thnaks for the info

is there much difference between the .22WMR .and the .22LR and .17 HMR @ those two ranges in ft lbs?

.22wmr

 

100yds. 178ft/lb

 

200. 118 ft/lb

 

Bonus, you can get a wmr in semiauto, so can be used for a rapid follow up if needed.

 

I used to use the Hmr, but after getting a few 'not too happy about' kills, I stopped doing so,

That's not to say if I'm rabbiting and see a fox and everything is ideal in terms of wind, range, stable firing position etc that I won't use it 'on' a fox, but I won't use it 'for' fox, if that makes sense,

if I'm going 'for' Charlie, it's either the wmr semi, triple deuce, or 243 depending on the land, weather conditions etc

 

Pete

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

.22wmr

 

100yds. 178ft/lb

 

200. 118 ft/lb

 

Bonus, you can get a wmr in semiauto, so can be used for a rapid follow up if needed.

 

I used to use the Hmr, but after getting a few 'not too happy about' kills, I stopped doing so,

That's not to say if I'm rabbiting and see a fox and everything is ideal in terms of wind, range, stable firing position etc that I won't use it 'on' a fox, but I won't use it 'for' fox, if that makes sense,

if I'm going 'for' Charlie, it's either the wmr semi, triple deuce, or 243 depending on the land, weather conditions etc

 

Pete

 

i know what you mean, if you are specifically going after foxes then you take a larger calibre rifle

but if you happen to stumble across one and everything adds up then you will take charlie down

[gaz6br]

i know what you mean, if you are specifically going after foxes then you take a larger calibre rifle

but if you happen to stumble across one and everything adds up then you will take charlie down

I would yes, I've shot plenty with my 22 lr and 17hmr when I've been rabbiting, called them in and head shot them. Used to shoot plenty with my shotgun as well before I was 18 and got my firearms. As long as your not daft most will kill in the right hands, but I always try to make sure of foxes no matter what because they soon learn and can become a nightmare to get.

[Tony.H]

what are everyones thoughts on this

trying to get a perspective as i read some people use them and some people dont

i have seem videos of people taking down a fox with a .17HMR with a body shot

what are the laws and what are the guidelines?

thanks in advance

everyones views and opinions are welcome

 

can i ask, do you shoot?

I ask as you seem to be confused with the lower cal rifles ie rimfires, and your statement asking what are the laws and guidelines.........

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

 

what are everyones thoughts on this

trying to get a perspective as i read some people use them and some people dont

i have seem videos of people taking down a fox with a .17HMR with a body shot

what are the laws and what are the guidelines?

thanks in advance

everyones views and opinions are welcome

 

can i ask, do you shoot?

I ask as you seem to be confused with the lower cal rifles ie rimfires, and your statement asking what are the laws and guidelines.........

 

im quite new and am in the process of applying for my FAC i originally come from a shooting background and have just got back into it since retiring from football.

i have a reasonable knowledge of calibres and rimfire and centrefires and what quarry they can and cannot be used on

this is a grey area i have come across and wanted to know peoples opinions thats all.

[gbal]

.22wmr

100yds. 178ft/lb

200. 118 ft/lb

Bonus, you can get a wmr in semiauto, so can be used for a rapid follow up if needed.

I used to use the Hmr, but after getting a few 'not too happy about' kills, I stopped doing so,

That's not to say if I'm rabbiting and see a fox and everything is ideal in terms of wind, range, stable firing position etc that I won't use it 'on' a fox, but I won't use it 'for' fox, if that makes sense,

if I'm going 'for' Charlie, it's either the wmr semi, triple deuce, or 243 depending on the land, weather conditions etc

Pete

Thanks,Pete-maybe 20 ft lbs high,on US commercial ammo,but I am with you in practice-foxes need and deserve at least a 22 cf,if it's' by design.'

Gbal

[gbal]

Gbal

thnaks for the info

is there much difference between the .22WMR .and the .22LR and .17 HMR @ those two ranges in ft lbs?

22 lr standard 80 60 22 sub sonic 70 55 22wrm 170 100 (typical ft lb at 100 and 200.Some 22mag 10% less)

 

gbal

[garyw]

Have some respect for the animal and use a calibre big enough to kill it with a body shot. The .17 hmr is not suitable .

AS Dave states- i used the hmr on a few mainly cubs when sat waiting near earths i got rid of mine when a head shot on a adult fox @ 50yds just zinged off into the beyond .plenty of suitable rifles out there to do the job .

[Tony.H]

im quite new and am in the process of applying for my FAC i originally come from a shooting background and have just got back into it since retiring from football.

i have a reasonable knowledge of calibres and rimfire and centrefires and what quarry they can and cannot be used on

this is a grey area i have come across and wanted to know peoples opinions thats all.

well for what its worth, and imo, its all about shot placement but, the 17hmr is a good rabbit gun and a very medioca fox gun, it can be used for fox, as long as its on your cert conditions, but if you are determined to shoot fox then i would ask for a min of a .22 centrefire. nobody is perfect, so practice practice practise on paper is what i like to do when i get chance.......

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

well for what its worth, and imo, its all about shot placement but, the 17hmr is a good rabbit gun and a very medioca fox gun, it can be used for fox, as long as its on your cert conditions, but if you are determined to shoot fox then i would ask for a min of a .22 centrefire. nobody is perfect, so practice practice practise on paper is what i like to do when i get chance.......

Thanks tony

Appreciate the input

[David Hancock]

I have .17HMR on my ticket for fox. Both Met and Suffolk conditioned this. I have a pig farm permission where I used this calibre to cleanly dispatch 175 foxes over 6 months, two moved 2 metres and dropped, the rest were clean. Headshot. Ranges 70 - 100 metres. 5 had to receive a second shot. 17gn Hornady was used.

 

I personally felt confident in the accuracy and humane effectiveness of my set up.

 

Now I'm in Essex I have been advised they will not condition this calibre for fox upon renewal.

 

BASC offer a different view. Articles in the shooting mags frequently use .17HMR for fox.

 

It's contentious, but we all have to use common sense. Frankly, I don't see how a .22lr can be conditioned for fox.

 

With reference to conditions, I have always had "Fox" on my ticket as a specific citing, not classed as vermin. Again a disparity between respective forces.

 

I respect those on UKV who have a different opinion.

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

I have .17HMR on my ticket for fox. Both Met and Suffolk conditioned this. I have a pig farm permission where I used this calibre to cleanly dispatch 175 foxes over 6 months, two moved 2 metres and dropped, the rest were clean. Headshot. Ranges 70 - 100 metres. 5 had to receive a second shot. 17gn Hornady was used.

 

I personally felt confident in the accuracy and humane effectiveness of my set up.

 

Now I'm in Essex I have been advised they will not condition this calibre for fox upon renewal.

 

BASC offer a different view. Articles in the shooting mags frequently use .17HMR for fox.

 

It's contentious, but we all have to use common sense. Frankly, I don't see how a .22lr can be conditioned for fox.

 

With reference to conditions, I have always had "Fox" on my ticket as a specific citing, not classed as vermin. Again a disparity between respective forces.

 

I respect those on UKV who have a different opinion.

 

 

Thanks pal.

After thinking things over I have come up with the conclusion to apply for a .17HMR for vermin control in general

Get some experience with that and then go down the centre fire route for foxes in the future

I'm sure there will still be plenty on my permissions in the future so I'm not fussed

Best not to rush into things

[Aggy]

I have had several .17 Hmr, s whilst I would be very confident taking rabbits I personally think .22 Hornett should be the minimum for fox

[gun nut]

I've shot 448 fox's. 2 with shotgun that were opportunistic shots, 6 with a 17hmr in the one night, not one of which I would consider a humane kill, after which I changed to a .222 and subsequently a 20tac. You could argue that under perfect conditions with perfect shot placement the 17hmr is up to foxing, but then again the same argument could be made for shooting elephants with a 6.5x55, the only difference being a fox isn't gonna tear your arm off and beat you to death with it should the outcome be less than perfect.Do yourself and your quarry a favour and use enough gun, wharever it is your shooting.

 

 

Mike

[sonic]

I would not use one as my "fox" rifle however it does have a place in the toolbox as it were. as .22rf does.

I could see it being useful in back gardens round buildings. But only where a CF would be unsafe. fact the bullets tend to disintegrate rather than ricochet making for a safer shot.

While many do I would not use one for more than short (30/40 yds) range.

Unlike an earlier comment I do not believe there is ever too much gun only an unsuitable backstop. There is however not enough gun. This is dependant on many things. While rimfires will do the job at close range there is a point where the odds against a clean kill become unacceptable.

[kent]

I am firmly in the no camp! you never get people posting videos of themselves chasing wounded foxes round the fields waving a HMR around frantically popping off trying to put it down! and it not because it doesn't happen either!. HMR is very unpredictable as regards terminals related to impact speed and range but also the exact placement and medium stuck. "Spot on the spot" you can kill a fox with pretty much any gun but that is no excuse to use just any gun! Carry enough gun - .22 Hornet upwards!

HMR will ricochet and quite badly if it hits sedge grass etc though is better than a 40 grn lump of .22 lead on impacting a hard surface, it should be given no quarter though as it carries twice the energy of a .22 lr. Energy and terminals are not totally linked, the .22 will tend to penetrate deeply and create a lot of hemouraging if it was a short range easy target of opportunity I should be happier with the .22 as I have never had unexpected terminals from a .22 slug when placed correctly - I have with .17 hmr frequently. Neither rimfire is a fox gun though!

[eldon]

Had a slot for a HMR and met a lad whilst stalking in scotland who had one on him. Shot a target at about 150yds and the wind was pushing my 308 about 1 1/2 - 2" sideways. Same shot with HMR and him spotting I couldn't hit a piece of A4. Walked the shots around the target and found the wind was deflecting the shot nearly the width of the page around 7 1/2".

 

Decided there and then that in theory a HMR was a good tool for my collection but in practice it wasn't suitable.

[gbal]

Had a slot for a HMR and met a lad whilst stalking in scotland who had one on him. Shot a target at about 150yds and the wind was pushing my 308 about 1 1/2 - 2" sideways. Same shot with HMR and him spotting I couldn't hit a piece of A4. Walked the shots around the target and found the wind was deflecting the shot nearly the width of the page around 7 1/2".

 

Decided there and then that in theory a HMR was a good tool for my collection but in practice it wasn't suitable.

Yep,that's what a 10 mph wind does to the 17 HMR at 150y. For 1 1/2 to 2 inches drift come in to 75 yards.

Gbal