what to do to improve public perception of shooting?

[bluebell]

Ok I have to say that I am not a huge fan of BASC but I am a member and I do believe that it offers reasonable value for money. However it is easy to slag people and organisations off less so to do something positive. Since we need some one fighting our corner and there are very few other candidates, how about some positive thoughts on how we can help ourselves and BASC to improve public perception of shooting sports.

 

1. I know that there is already some of this done but there needs to be more education of the general public that not eveyone who owns a gun is a madman (I use the term as I dont think that there have been any mass murders by women in this country ). Also that not all firarms are automatically dangerous - as all cars are not automatically dangerous.

 

2. More positive steps to get people involved in shooting. At the moment it is I think still quite difficult to get in to the sport unless you know some one who shoots. So perhaps a stepping stone between the 'new shots' and 'independent' shooting possibly a buddy system?

 

3. More visibility at all sorts of events - I know that it is not always possible to set up clay shoots but there must normally be room for air rifle or lazer shooting just to get people handling guns...

 

 

Ok that is my 10p worth what about the rest of you?

[bigun]

BASC took my money for two 2yrs ,when it was time to give me some thing back like a bit of talk which is cheep so i keep on hearing ,they did no want to know ,.i got the feeling they were talking down to me and i was not worthy off there time ....basc are money grabbers nothing more ..go with the NGO a far better group to talk too ..

[bluebell]

BASC took my money for two 2yrs ,when it was time to give me some thing back like a bit of talk which is cheep so i keep on hearing ,they did no want to know ,.i got the feeling they were talking down to me and i was not worthy off there time ....basc are money grabbers nothing more ..go with the NGO a far better group to talk too ..

 

As WSM has said on another thread - where are they when it comes to interviews and supporting us in the current crisis?

[Alycidon]

In fairness they might not have even been asked, the GCN and others are pretty savvy about these things and no doubt will have been on the phone offering interviews etc.

 

I have been a BASC member for well over 30 years, mainly for the insurance but they have given me sound advice in the days before sites such as this. Mike Eversleigh is a very sound guy in my book. Despite their well documented shortcomings we do need a national voice and they are arguably the best we have so I support them.

 

At present I think anything you do will just be seem by the public for what it is, an attempt to show people who shoot in a good light. All I would continue to do is to get as many novices involved as you can and let them have a shot or two at a paper target under your supervision, you know how addictive it is.

 

We have recently got the Air Cadet organisation shooting clays with shotguns as well as paper targets with rimfire and army issue centerfire rifles. They are a very large youth (13-20)organisation that are dry training and introducing youngsters to all types of live weapon shooting as a sport. That is where the future of shooting lies in the younger generations and the ATC should be appluded for their attitude.

 

What can we do now?, nothing, wait for the fuss to die down but be planning some sort of charity fundraising event perhaps.

 

Perhaps Mike, if you have time would care to give us a steer on this one.

 

 

A

[David BASC]

I think your three point plan has merit:

 

Education of the general public that certificated firearm / shotgun owners are of sound mind and a safe people (we HAVE to be to get a ticket!)

 

More people trying shooting - this could be helped by clays grounds, rifle clubs, airgun clubs being much more open and promoting themselves, as well as the excellent buddy system you mention.

 

Greater exposure and ‘have a go’ stands at all sorts of shows and events – again this could be run by clubs and grounds as a away of not only pushing the ‘big message’ but to encourage new business too!.

 

As mentioned we also have the cadet force.

 

From BASC’s point of view we also run a range of courses and events in schools –to educate that guns are not toys and can be used safely in the right environment. OK we are not necessarily going to convert all of the 2-5000 kids a year we see into shooters, but we may at least give these kids (the adult voters of tomorrow) and indeed their families a balanced view of legitimate firearm ownership.

 

There is ,of course, the National Shooting Week, run by the British Shooting Sports Council And fronted kindly by the CA – but this is only one week a year, we want and need an all year round plan – much like Bluebell says.

 

David

[MachIV]

Education of the general public that certificated firearm / shotgun owners are of sound mind and a safe people (we HAVE to be to get a ticket!)

 

Hi David

I don't want to start a fight here but the above statement is clearly not true hence recent events. 99.9999% of us with tickets are of sound mind and safe and I agree that is the message the public should get.

[David BASC]

OK, I am not going to quibble or split hairs over a decimal point!

 

David

[Alycidon]

David,

 

Thank you for taking the time to advise us at what must be a pretty stressfull time for you. Please keep us updated on what else we can do to help get the message accross. I think that most of us older ones are quietly going about educating the younger generation in some capacity.

 

You wont need me to tell you that we really need you and other organisations like you to put aside your squabbles and FIGHT for us in the media. I am sure we can rely on your support. Please accept our thanks for all the hard and normally thankless work that this entails.

 

Thanks again

 

A

[David BASC]

Kind words , well received, thank you

 

David

[1967spud]

David in what capacity are you in BASC please not beeing nosy just wiondered?

[bluebell]

Thanks for your kind words David. I dont know if the BASC site now has a forum or facility for feed back but perhaps there is a role there? If there is - sorry I didnt know about it and use it!

 

Would the BASC prehaps give some consideration to a support in maintaining a local database of both shows and 'buddies'? It would also perhaps be helpful if you could provide a little information about the implications of running a stand at a show as whilst Im sure most of it is common sense Im sure that it has H&S implications

 

Whilst I appreciate that you have limited resources - especially at the moment; I do think that you perhaps miss a trick as I am sure many of us would be prepared to do something to help but are never asked! Whilst people feel that there is something they love under threat is the time to enlist their help. I for one get fed up with being continually asked for money and would find it a refreshing change to feel that I could contribute in some other way.

 

Finally I know that many of the shooting guys I know are more knowledgable about the wildlife in their patch than most people so perhaps we can use that aspect to reach a slightly different audience?

[lancslad]

David...............how come you havent found this site before today???????????????????

[whoowhoop]

I'll just add my two penn'orth for what its worth, if I may.

The media have a list of past "rentaquotes",who they will turn to as reliable sources.

All they want is an easy quote. But you won't know what it is that they will ask.

 

Some are professionals, as BASC should be, and as CA are. I cannot speak for NGO, but I do know UCSW are experienced.

It is not easy being the point of contact. One weak response and we all end up paying. Remember how badly shooting came across in the wake of Dunblane? Once something has been said, like a trigger being pulled, it can't be withdrawn.

Lazy reporters will often use out of date or fringe contacts. Like asking a beagler about coursing or DTL shooter about stalking.

Few of us make sure the reporter takes any notes and fewer ask for them to be read back.

When it comes to TV or radio, the media retain complete editorial control, you have to agree beforehand ( like playing cards blind) to them editing it as they wish. No agreement, no fee, and no comment from you shown.

 

Very few of us are comfortable speaking about what we do in public. Fewer still can deal with idiots on a regular basis.

Once asked the difficult question in front of an audience, you have to answer. And answer for all of us. It's not fun, it's very tiring.

It is all too easy to give a personal opinion ,when none should be given, and that goes for the professionals as well.

BFSS used to train people in media response in every county.

The hunting world is well exercised in channelling inquiries to the safest respondent. each pack should still have its own spokesman.

The hunting fraternity finally learnt to their cost that it simply is not good enough to keep falling back and building barricades.

Or even worse, by offering up sacrifices

 

The same cannot be said for other field sports groups.

And therein lies the risk.

I hope BASC is up to the task - they will most certainly tell us how well they did.

 

With 24 hour media, and 15 minute round the clock updates, reporters are desperate to make some copy.

The general standard of reporting on these tragic events hasn't been of the highest order.

Nor have the experts quotes, as in the ex cumbrian policeman tonight who said that "silencers are not on licences and questions will be asked as to how he (sic) had aquired one"

 

It is relatively impossible to speak of how such a terrible deed has consequencies which might end up affecting us and how we conduct ourselves, without sounding callous and selfish to the extreme.

This is why great care must be exercised in any response

[David BASC]

Dear All,

 

Firstly I have been a member of BASC staff for 15 years, I work in the communications team at BASC and may main roll s membership recruitment and membership retention.

 

We promote all the shows and events we do on our web site, have a look at the regional pages.

 

If members want to offer their help we do have a network of volunteers - link http://www.basc.org.uk/en/join/volunteer.cfm - but if you want contact me at the office david.ilsley@basc.org.uk

 

Yes attending a show has all sorts of issues - cost, risk assessment, insurance and so on...

 

As to a buddy system list, OK need more thought, I will look into it, maybe linked to a clay grounds and airgun clubs?

 

There are loads of shooting forums! I cant be on all of them...but a BASC member who is a member of this forum asked me to join.

 

I agree - caution when contacting the media, we spend loads of time training our people who have to give TV and radio interviews - its so easy to make a slip up, and so easy for a recorded interview tobe edited so what you seem to say is not what you meant - one of the very early interviews with Bill Harriman on the day of the terrible shooting was a case in point.

 

I will be working away from my office for all of next week, so contact with a PC will be on and off - so sorry if I take time to come back on some posts.

 

David

[grahamfarmer]

hi guys,

 

well thank or lucky stars the teribble events took place in cumbria after the election and not before just think of the golden egg that labour would of used if it had been in the run up to the election and we have in david cameron and tressa may two people who are going to not do any thing till all the facts are in and from his views so far i hope not much will change in the end . prehaps renewals will take longer as no police force will want any cockups in the near future . but prehaps we are reacting the wrong way and we should be saying yes our gun laws are tough and rightly so and last weeks events shouldnt of happened but we do not know how many people have been stopped from holding legal guns and how many shooting have been averted by them in the past but no system can be 100 % secure .

 

sadly the last two knee jerk reactions to gun outrages have done little to control illegal gun crime but have probally promoted it as the ban on semi auto weapons only removed legally held guns and the same with the hand gun ban these to weapons have know been promoted to cult status among criminals and feature reguarly in news stories in the news, when was the last time you heard of a shotgun used in a robbery. also as one news item said there are probally twice as many illegal guns in the country now as legal one .

 

so lets hope that any changes that do happen are thought though and fair as the coaliation keep saying.

 

graham.

[TonyH]

... we have in david cameron and tressa may two people who are going to not do any thing till all the facts are in and from his views so far i hope not much will change in the end ...

I hope you're right, but let's not count our chickens. It is true that Cameron has gone the opposite way from Major, who in summer 1996 was so rash as to say on air that handguns would be banned - in advance of Parliamentary debate of what would be the 1997 Act...

But mildly cheered though I am by this, it's early days, and in this country it is impossible to exaggerate the power of ill-informed (and often vicious) propagandising by press & politicians, and the susceptibility of government to instant bans - no matter how oppressive, futile, illiberal, counter productive, non-evidential or just plain stupid such bans might be. I deliberately didn't listen to "Any Questions" since it was dead certain that we would hear entirely predictable junk-arguments from the usual suspects saying there should be no guns at all. Such a ban would of course be wildly illiberal, and ensure that only two groups still had guns - the agents of the State, and criminals - but ban proponents don't give a damn about such frivolities as logic, evidence, and liberty.

 

..sadly the last two knee jerk reactions to gun outrages have done little to control illegal gun crime but have probally promoted it as the ban on semi auto weapons only removed legally held guns and the same with the hand gun ban these to weapons have know been promoted to cult status among criminals and feature reguarly in news stories in the news, when was the last time you heard of a shotgun used in a robbery. also as one news item said there are probally twice as many illegal guns in the country now as legal one...

There's no evidence that our Firearms Acts have at any time either promoted or hindered gun crime - there is simply no observable connection between our "gun control" laws and armed crime. Handguns haven't become more popular since the 1997 Act - it was always the case that the handgun was the armed robber's weapon of choice (very much more than shotguns) and the law simply wasn't a factor. This phenomenon hugely pre-dates the "handgun ban". Which scatterbrained journo snatched that "twice as many" figure out of the air? He's a moron, but wholly typical: nobody knows, by definition, how many off-ticket guns there are, and official estimates (well, guesses) have varied enormously from a couple of hundred thousand, to several million.

TonyH

[baldie]

The fact is that handgun crime has increased by one third since 1997.

I believe there will be changes. I also think they will be on medical grounds for grants etc, i doubt that any type of weapon will be banned. Even the gonks in parliament know the pistol ban was unjust, unfair, and did absolutely nothing to keep the people any safer. They also know that the public will not put up with the bullshit, and damned lies that followed dunblane again.

Evidence is already amassing that the gunman was refused medical treatment the day before the tragedy. He knew he was ill, and was turned away. Its also now known he was refused a flight because he was blind drunk. That is perfectly legitimate grounds for an FAC revocation. There are people much nearer the front of the blame queue....than ourselves.

[MachIV]

I think the main issue here is coming up with a system that tries to prevent this from happening again.

 

I work in the pharmaceutical industry and I can see some ideas used in the industry to protect public health that might work. One is self regulation or to put it simply coming up with ideas yourselves before the government issue their own ideas as law.

 

All of the medicines legislation revolves around the premise of 'ensuring public safety'. One of the key things in the industry is something called pharmacovigilance. Basically all pharmaceutical companies have to have extensive systems in place to collect information on adverse reactions to their products. The idea is that we collect information on adverse reactions to see if anything has changed or are the reactions in line with what we already know.

 

It is very important for new drugs. Although they have been through clinical trials the drugs won't have been exposed to every type of person out there, also interactions with other drugs might not have been tested. So when the drug is released to the general population there is the chance of a new reaction occuring. The responsibility is on the company to analyse all reports to see if something has changed.

 

This is not dissimilar to someone getting a new ticket or their renewal. The FEO has interviewed them is happy and the ticket is issued however things can change as we have just seen. For example tumours and cancers can change blood chemistry enough to cause serious mood swings. What we need is a system that picks up changes in people and reacts to those reports.

 

As Baldie has just pointed out there was evidence that the guy was off the rails but there was no response to remove his firearms. That is where we are failing.

 

A couple of ideas for a reporting system are as follows - when I go to my doctor there should be a note in my medical notes to say that I have and FAC. Then if I have gone in for depression etc the Dr should have a clear reporting line to the local FEO or similar.

 

All drugs have on the packaging clear information of where to report an adverse reaction - it is part of the legislation. A similar system could be set up for the public to report ticket holders to the local FEO. As an example if a ticket holder makes a threat to shoot someone as happened then that should be reported.

 

The local FEO then needs the power to remove the weapons instantly on a temporary basis. When everyone concerned is happy the firearms could be given back.

 

The current laws are pretty good I think what we are missing are the reporting feedback systems to alert local FEOs to a problem and the ability to react quickly and remove the firearms just in case.

 

As responsible members of the shooting community we should suggest something that might help rather than wait for Downing street to put their spin on it.

 

As a shooter and member of the public I never want to see another incident like the one we have just seen.

[bluebell]

Hi Mach IV

I agree that it is much better to to proactive and if nothing else I think that this incident is a very poor reflection on our society and the NHS ability to deal with mental health issues. In future we perhaps need some different way of highlighting it - a friend has been trying to get her elderly mother some help and got so desperate that she tried to get her committed only to be told that they were not going to do that unless she was a direct and immediate threat to someone other than herself as they would then become responsible for housing and feeding her and there was no space for her. With that sort of attitude we are never likley to catch things early enough.

 

Secondly Im afraid in the current climate we probably need to think very carefully about increasing the role of fire arms licencing as they are trying to make it self funding IMHO and if they have to do more inspections then we will be the ones paying for it. Having said that I do think it is wrong that renewals appear to go through on the nod almost.

 

Finally I think that we need some way of removing FAC/ shot gun certs for a period of time ( or possibly increasing the monitoring of the person) with every possibility of getting them back again/ being allowed to continue as before. Otherwise people who are keen shots but are also going through say divorce, other major stresses or even believe they say have a drink/drugs problem, have no incentive to report themselves or hand over weapons as to do so is to know they will never get them back.

 

People need incentives of a positive outcome to take the right action.

[David BASC]

Interesting and valid points, I will pass them onto my work mates who will be dealing with the political issues, one will be in London for the next three days for example.

 

There needs to be a balance and what ever system is put in place, if indeed a new one is, must be fair and robust and applied in the same way UK wide - unlike current firearm legislation as some of you will know!

 

For example, some forces already revoke you if you get divorced - and you will often have to wait two years at least before you can re-apply

 

However, linking it into your medical records and having a professional view of your mental health on an ongoing basis is alrady in the melting pot to be honest, I think, a good idea. There is a difference between somone needing treatment to get over a situation (like death or a parent or a divorce for example) and somone who has gone well off the rails.

 

However, I was talking to a member on friday who had gone to his doc and a referee, to be told that it was practice policy not to sign cert applications as they were agianst firearm ownership!!!

 

As things develop I will, of course, keep you informed, but please keep thoughts and ideas coming

My best wishes

 

David

[brown dog]

However, linking it into your medical records and having a professional view of your mental health on an ongoing basis is alrady in the melting pot to be honest, I think, a good idea.

....

However, I was talking to a member on friday who had gone to his doc and a referee, to be told that it was practice policy not to sign cert applications as they were agianst firearm ownership!!!

 

Interesting observation; what must be guarded against here is the police simply passing the buck to doctors. In today's litigious society, if you were a doctor would you sign? A consequence would be the de facto empowerment of doctors to control private ownership of firearms in this country. Would that be right in a liberal democracy? Clearly not.

 

The pragmatic answer is that there needs to be a linkage between a change in an individual's mental health situation and the firearms licensing authority. That's all that's missing here.

[Zaitsev]

'having a professional view of your mental health'

 

This is also extremely problematic. Mental health (and I use the term advisedly) is not an exact science and is prone to mis-interpretation and mis-diagnosis.

 

If-a big if-this measure was to be used, there would have to be an option for an applicant to seek a second opinion. Diagnosis of problems between professionals can vary wildly and the interpretation of mental health reports by lay people can also lead to issues without foundation.

 

Additionally, who would pay for such a measure? Would it be on the NHS or would it be a fee payable by the applicant?

 

What interval would this measure be applied at? Yearly, quarterly, monthly?

 

You see, I'm not sure that mental health profiling in any form will help to prevent an incident such as we have recently witnessed. Peoples mental state can change daily and unless someone is being very regularly monitored I think it would add a great burden to the licensing system without delivering the very desirable outcomes which it appears-at first glance- to be able to do.

 

So, I'm sad to say David that I cannot agree with you that this is a good idea. I am also concerned that this is 'already in the melting pot'. On what basis and on whose advice?

 

Please can you advise on the above points?

 

Best regards

 

Gareth

[grahamfarmer]

well if as it could be that david bird went to the medical proffession for help with mental health issues it seems that it could be a failing of the nhs that caused the tradgey not the failings of the firearms licenseing laws . but as some people have suggested then the police should of been informed whats to say that it would of happened in time to stop the terrible events.

 

also regarding divorce whats the difference between two married people parting amicabbly after ten years of marriage to two partners spliting with slanging matches after twelve months or even a non habbiting relationship ending , will you be able to date people with out handing in your guns every time you go out with a different person i. that could be the point of a very nasty and millicous piece of legisation . and where do you draw the line on you mental state what happens if some uninsured idiot run into your car and rights it off does that make you more dangerous to the public than the idiot driving with no insurance knowingly.

 

we already give the police permission to ask or doctors about our medical records so why not change that to a yearly update on the renewal form . also i know of some one who was recomended to take up a sport years ago to stop him from having a mental breakdown as his doctor recommended he had to switch off from the pressures of work so he took up game shooting and became a crack game shot and even to the extent that with the advent of mobile phones they where banned on his shoot from when you arrived at the lodge for breakfast to when you left for home after the meal normally the first time they where allowed on was to ring for the taxi home but in the week at work you would think he was going to blow a gasket at any time so where would he stand sadly he died aged 53 a muliti millionare from a heart attack at his game reserve in africa .

 

graham.

[David BASC]

I agree that there are many issues to be ironed out - but is there merrit in an 'early warning system' based on medical records - I think htere is, but the devil is in the detial.

 

I do not think there should be regular check ups, but maybe formal notification if the GP or hospital belived this perosn is unbalanced - BUT as you say this not an exact science and is to some extent, subjective. Maybe this should simply trigger another home visit by the FLO?

 

We already have to give the OK for medical checks for Sec 1 so may be there will be pressure for the same to apply to Sec 2. This has, I belive, already floated around the home office.

 

I do not think there should be any cost implication, not in this day of electroonic communication.

 

David

[whoowhoop]

I'm sorry, but "mental health" is based on opinion and not fact.

That lunatic Spike Milligan, who used to have himself sectioned, had a certificate from a doctor stating that he was sane, and would tell you it was proof that you were mad because you didn't have the same certification.

I don't visit my GP, like as not I'd only get a locum anyway.

Would they be suitable to give opinion on my state of mind?

BASC, you worry me.

You keep saying you are the "voice of shooting"

If I heard such voices in my head, then perhaps I should be certified?

 

As for electronic communication being reliable?

Oh! Please!!