Elwood Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 I thought I would share my first attempts and thoughts on annealing, I know some of you guys know your metals so please advise if necessary. Annealing is something I have always wondered about but thought it was witchcraft/black magic. To be honest I was forced into annealing due to owning a 7WSM, match preparing and neck turning all my brass which has become increasingly difficult to find. From what I have read most people anneal their 7 WSM cases every 3-4 firings. With all the time I have spent making shite Winchester brass good, I'm not about to bin it after 3-4 or even 5 firings (I hope) So after reading and talking to as many people who anneal I came up predictably with a thousand different ways of annealing and everyone swears there's is the correct way. Some would say heat the necks to a cherry red colour in a darkened room and others would say heat to a dull blue colour. The bit of info I did listen to was that structure of brass changes at 480F this is when the brass starts to soften and softening the bottom two thirds of the case is bad! which will result in the brass being ruined. I had some spare once fire 7WSM cases to practice on and tried using the heat the neck until a dull blue colour appeared about a quarter of an inch past the shoulder, perfect, it couldn't have been easier, it came out looking like brand new Lapua (if only they made 7WSM brass) Now what I did notice was that the blue colour appeared much quicker on dull cases, cases that had been in the tumbler several times and looked as shiny as a shiny thing on a dark night took much longer! which obviously means they got hotter, possibly to hot, but I wasn't sure. What I do know is that I wasn't going to risk my match prepped brass. My answer was to browse the net again where I found on the Hornady site an annealing kit, bingo! I took a quick look on Midway UK and it's all mine for £50 plus postage ( I membered the recession and said sod that) and found the same stuff here in the UK for about £10, http://www.industrial-markers.co.uk/rangeS...=14&br=14_0 buy the Tempilaq and not the Templestik crayon. The kit includes a heat indicating liquid that as soon as it gets to it's given temp it disappears (black magic) I read on the Snipers Hide that the 450F liquid is applied by way of a brush a quarter inch below the shoulder, heat the neck with a butane gas torch (£20 from Screw fix) and when the heat moves down the neck and shoulder the now dry liquid dissolves at 450F (I used 475F Tempilaq) and you know it's time to stop heating and quench the case in water. It seems fool proof to me ? but probably not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood Posted June 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Blimey, did I write all that? I missed Sunday service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menial 1 Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 I've just had my .243 Ackleyed and consequently have around 400 Lapua cases. So I decided to experiment with annealing prior to fireforming ( new cases are now scary money), I set a Ronson gas torch up on my bench and using brass that had been prepped in the normal way placed them in the collet of a Lee trimmer which was in a cordless drill and found if I spun them slowly holding them in the hottest part of the flame, after approx. 11 secs I was left with a case that looked like it had just come out of a brand new lot of Lapua. I noticed that directing the flame at the top of the body of the case. the neck would just start to redden after 11 secs. when in a darkened room I loaded with 85gr Sierra SP over 43.5grn of Viht 160 and steadily shot them over the course of an afternoon. They fireformed to the desired shape, losing around 15thou in length during the firing process, so I'm now going to load them with some moderate Ackley loads and see how they hold up. If all goes well I'll have saved myself a small fortune and learned something for future use. Not very scientific I know but I thought it's got to be worth a whirl. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967spud Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 is it advantageous to anneal for the sake of doing it , or only after a big resizing procedure why i ask is, since i ve had my ackley i have fireformed several cases with out annealing and i wasnt sure if i should have done it or wether i should do it now, unless its too late i wouldnt mind doing it as itssome thing else to learn , and im all for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood Posted June 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Mark, it's about prolonging case life for me. The cost of the brass isn't that important to me, even say 6.5x47 lapua brass at say £100 per 100 cases including postage. If you get 10 reloads out each case then it's not that expensive, but I guess it all adds up. For me it's all about how long it has taken me to prep the Winchester brass and not wanting to do it again anytime soon. From what I have read it can also be an accuracy aid for more consistent neck tension, whether or not that's true I have no idea I will let the BR shooters argue that one. More importantly it stops the brass from getting work hardened and hopefully prolonging the life of the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967spud Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Mark, it's about prolonging case life for me. The cost of the brass isn't that important to me, even say 6.5x47 lapua brass at say £100 per 100 cases including postage. If you get 10 reloads out each case then it's not that expensive, but I guess it all adds up. For me it's all about how long it has taken me to prep the Winchester brass and not wanting to do it again anytime soon. From what I have read it can also be an accuracy aid for more consistent neck tension, whether or not that's true I have no idea I will let the BR shooters argue that one. More importantly it stops the brass from getting work hardened and hopefully prolonging the life of the case. cheersmate i might try a few just to have a go at it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 I had a friend who annealed cases for years using a simple method. He heated a pot lead until it would just stay liquefied then hold a case (30-06) neck and shoulder into the lead until the rim/head got too warm for his bare fingers. He then tossed them into room temp H2o. When I asked about the method, he said that lead began to slump at 460 -470F and he'd found that about 12 seconds in the drink annealed them nicely at that temperature range. I never tried it for myself but I thought I'd toss that one out at you.~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menial 1 Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 My attempt at annealing used .243 brass and then fireforming in the Ackley seems to have been a success, loaded some fireformed rounds with 70gr Blitzkings over 42.5, 43.5, 44.5 and 45grn of Viht 140, col set at 2.215". The 44.5 five shot group gave sub 1/2" group with little sign of pressure. 45grn load gave a stiffer bolt lift and pressure signs on the primer so looks as though I'ved cracked it without the added expense of new brass. This rifle to be used solely for day to day pest control so won't be chasing an improvement on this load too much. I'm a happy lad and with a bit of luck I'll christen the new load tonight when I'm out lamping. I'll have play with the seating depth and put some over the chrono in the next couple of days. Looking for 3600fps+ which with zero 1.5" over at 100yds should give me 1" under at 250yds, a handy point and squirt job at night. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menial 1 Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 The Ackley rounds are certainly effective, 4 large cubs from various fields where the farmer I went out with has cut some of his fields for hay. No shots that stick in the mind, just bread and butter culling, but the farmer's pleased as they're expanding their shoot this year and doesn't usually start to shoot fox till after harvest. Funny enough he wondered if we might have another look this week. That makes nine less on his ground in the last ten days. The adults are jumpy though as they've been chasing them around with shotguns on the back of trucks so don't hang about when they hear a vehicle. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Coltauto Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I thought I would share my first attempts and thoughts on annealing, I know some of you guys know your metals so please advise if necessary. Annealing is something I have always wondered about but thought it was witchcraft/black magic. To be honest I was forced into annealing due to owning a 7WSM, match preparing and neck turning all my brass which has become increasingly difficult to find. From what I have read most people anneal their 7 WSM cases every 3-4 firings. With all the time I have spent making shite Winchester brass good, I'm not about to bin it after 3-4 or even 5 firings (I hope) So after reading and talking to as many people who anneal I came up predictably with a thousand different ways of annealing and everyone swears there's is the correct way. Some would say heat the necks to a cherry red colour in a darkened room and others would say heat to a dull blue colour. The bit of info I did listen to was that structure of brass changes at 480F this is when the brass starts to soften and softening the bottom two thirds of the case is bad! which will result in the brass being ruined. I had some spare once fire 7WSM cases to practice on and tried using the heat the neck until a dull blue colour appeared about a quarter of an inch past the shoulder, perfect, it couldn't have been easier, it came out looking like brand new Lapua (if only they made 7WSM brass) Now what I did notice was that the blue colour appeared much quicker on dull cases, cases that had been in the tumbler several times and looked as shiny as a shiny thing on a dark night took much longer! which obviously means they got hotter, possibly to hot, but I wasn't sure. What I do know is that I wasn't going to risk my match prepped brass. My answer was to browse the net again where I found on the Hornady site an annealing kit, bingo! I took a quick look on Midway UK and it's all mine for £50 plus postage ( I membered the recession and said sod that) and found the same stuff here in the UK for about £10, http://www.industrial-markers.co.uk/rangeS...=14&br=14_0 buy the Tempilaq and not the Templestik crayon. The kit includes a heat indicating liquid that as soon as it gets to it's given temp it disappears (black magic) I read on the Snipers Hide that the 450F liquid is applied by way of a brush a quarter inch below the shoulder, heat the neck with a butane gas torch (£20 from Screw fix) and when the heat moves down the neck and shoulder the now dry liquid dissolves at 450F (I used 475F Tempilaq) and you know it's time to stop heating and quench the case in water. It seems fool proof to me ? but probably not! I apologize in advance for where I have stated the obvious. Annealing is only a way of returning brass to its original hardness after being work hardened by case forming or chamber pressure working. The two difficult parts about annealing are 1) making sure the case neck and upper shoulders are uniformly heated around their circumference and not overtemping the brass and end up with an overly malleable piece of brass with the appearance of a very crystalline grain. You definitely don't want to anneal below the shoulders as you have already indicted. I handload for a considerable number of pricy high intensity cartridges, so I anneal brass approximately every third handload. I put a pan of water on the table, grasp the case mid body and twist it between my fingers while heating the neck and shoulder top with a propane torch. I do not use any more temp reading technology than my finger tips being very adept at knowing when to let go of something hot. That is approximately 180 degrees F reaching finger tips for about half a second. The temp conducted to my fingers comes very close to 450F at the neck and by letting go and dropping the case into water, all further annealing is stopped and the rest of the case is protected from excessive temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967spud Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 so what are peoples thoughts on this subject as to the best methos, plus there is loads of films on you tube about this very subject but tbh its a little confusing and contradictory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarinePMI Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 so what are peoples thoughts on this subject as to the best methos, plus there is loads of films on you tube about this very subject but tbh its a little confusing and contradictory Oh boy, now that's a loaded question! I think this gets down to neck concentricity and how much does it impact a rifle's accuracy (assuming the chamber is cut concentric to the bore axis; I think this is why coltauto is askng his question). I have no empirical data, but I'd venture to say that also the amount of "bullet jump" would play into how much neck concentricity affects things. Some will argue it makes a huge difference and some will argue the opposite, but honestly, I think it's benefits have more to do with the rifle's condition as well as the cartridge/brass's condition that is being used. IIRC it was Narramore or Howe that thought primer pocket uniforming was more important, but those books are quite dated (still valid though) and I don't think concentricity got much attention then (of course I could be having a total brain fart, and forgettting parts of those books). Clear as mud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-NZ Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Of all the variables involved in handloading, messing round with primer pockets would seem the least productive. I've occasionally uniformed the flash holes on some batches of brass but only if they were obviously daggy. IMHO, you're better off concentrating on the biggies- sizing, seating depth and powder load. Chris-NZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarinePMI Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Chris, I'd agree, I guess I was alluding to what "little things" provide the most impact. Little things being something other than the normal powder weight, seating depth and sizing method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 "IIRC it was Narramore or Howe that thought primer pocket uniforming was more important, but those books are quite dated (still valid though) and I don't think concentricity got much attention then (of course I could be having a total brain fart, and forgettting parts of those books)." It was Naramore who ran the Aberdeen Proving grounds and it was his (the US Army's) tests that showed that uniform primer ignition -and the uniform transference of the primer ignition to the propellant- to be so important for consistency in pressures and accuracy. Dated, perhaps, but still very relevant. He wrote his book in 1953 and emphasized having uniform primer pocket depth, uniform flash holes and removing the burrs caused by the punching process if one wanted truly consistent ignition pressures. Now it's considered to be a "modern" set of case prep practices. ~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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