dogfox1 Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Hi, I fancy a small centre-fire as a replacement for my rimfires, something with a little more energy than the 17Hmr. Top end fully covered with 222 etc and above. I do not really want a hornet or a round based on the hornet. As I would like it to built on a Remington , something like a Fireball which would have a short mag and more likely to feed to feed with less problems. A 17, 20 or 22 ? Case preparation and load development is part of fun , so not a problem. Has anyone had built a small round based on a set back / shortened fireball, 222 or 30 carbine case etc. Only looking for around an accurate 100 yds for Rabbits, vermin etc with a good sound moderator. I would be interested if anyone has any suggestions. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 G....lots have been tried,and a long time ago-since you mention 30 carbine,Landis had the 17 Pee Wee which is exotic and fits your bill,as a 100y bunny round....and of course a challenge,in almost every way. Then there was/is the 17 Squirrel....I don't recall a shortened Fireball,itself a slightly challenged 222rem,but I would not be surprised. The rumoured WSM rf might do,as a maybe,maybe better 17HRFM.The 5mm rem mag rf failed too. The new design 17 Hornet seems to work,off the shelf,so without any of the challenge -it really is not the old Hornet at all. Then there is the modern PPC Waldog-a shortened 22PPC,accurate and potent enough for Bench Rest so 100/200 capable.. on and on.....I'll dig out my Landis 22 Varmint cartridges,and add some more exotica....plenty of wheels to reinvent,or just turn again,at wildcat costs. gbal gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybrock Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Hi, I fancy a small centre-fire as a replacement for my rimfires, something with a little more energy than the 17Hmr. Top end fully covered with 222 etc and above. I do not really want a hornet or a round based on the hornet. As I would like it to built on a Remington , something like a Fireball which would have a short mag and more likely to feed to feed with less problems. A 17, 20 or 22 ? Case preparation and load development is part of fun , so not a problem. Has anyone had built a small round based on a set back / shortened fireball, 222 or 30 carbine case etc. Only looking for around an accurate 100 yds for Rabbits, vermin etc with a good sound moderator. I would be interested if anyone has any suggestions. G I'm just going down this road, Ive settled on the .17 Rem Fireball looking forward to getting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 You need nothing more than using your existing 222,,,,,,,,get yourself some Trail Boss powder,,,,,with your existing bullet,,probably a 40 to 50 grain?,,,,,load to existing OAL and work up a load with the Trail Boss. I have a stonking accurate load for my 223 with 7 gns of TB and a 50 Blitzking,,,,gives me 1750 fps and pretty flat to 100 yards,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,your 222 may work well with similar loads ,,,,experiment,,,,,, I can also run my 22PPC with 7.5 gns of Trail Boss with the 50gn Blitzkings ,,,,,,silly accurate at lower velocity for 100 yards. Both rifles need no windage correction for zero at 100 yards [given I zero at 200 for full power loads] simply an elevation dial up 3 MOA for the 223 and 2 MOA for the PPC. No case prep just a bit of load development,,,,,,,,,take care TB does not flow well in powder measures and you may well have to use a dipper/scooper etc and trickle up carefully,,,,,,,,I think you will be very surprised what you can do with this powder and your existing 222,,,,,,,,,,,,O Otherwise,,,,,,,,17/22 Fireball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 Welcome to my world lol , iv been for the last 6 months at least trying to decided on a hmr replacement , and iv settled on the 223 rem case or 222 but using forming dies to gradually size bump a 223 to 17 rem neck and shoulder dimensions ( using a modified 17 rem die ) but even shorter than a 17 Fb eventually , as the case would be just over 1" in length , the tapered 30° shoulder and long neck would keep the round as long as practically possible but hopefully keep good accuracy from the long neck . Of course my smith think im mad and iv got no chance . But that just makes me want to accomplish it even more . I love the thought of a 17 rem short / loadable , cases easy to obtain - YES probable difficult to form in many steps but a 17 or 20 grain Vmax doing around 2800-3000 fps in an almost miniture ppc / Br looking case now that really floats my boat .No problem with available actions / bolt faces. Yes id have to get reamers made but im sure id not be the only one who would want something completely different . You can probable tell i liked to read Bruce Potts old articles ! all the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCetrizine Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 What about a .17 Ackley Bee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogfox1 Posted October 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 You need nothing more than using your existing 222,,,,,,,,get yourself some Trail Boss powder,,,,,with your existing bullet,,probably a 40 to 50 grain?,,,,,load to existing OAL and work up a load with the Trail Boss. I have a stonking accurate load for my 223 with 7 gns of TB and a 50 Blitzking,,,,gives me 1750 fps and pretty flat to 100 yards,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,your 222 may work well with similar loads ,,,,experiment,,,,,, I can also run my 22PPC with 7.5 gns of Trail Boss with the 50gn Blitzkings ,,,,,,silly accurate at lower velocity for 100 yards. Both rifles need no windage correction for zero at 100 yards [given I zero at 200 for full power loads] simply an elevation dial up 3 MOA for the 223 and 2 MOA for the PPC. No case prep just a bit of load development,,,,,,,,,take care TB does not flow well in powder measures and you may well have to use a dipper/scooper etc and trickle up carefully,,,,,,,,I think you will be very surprised what you can do with this powder and your existing 222,,,,,,,,,,,,O Otherwise,,,,,,,,17/22 Fireball. I did think about Trail boss in the 222rem but read alot of people could not get consistant accuracy or the 22-250AI. thanks for heads up with the powder, I trickle all my loads now. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogfox1 Posted October 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 I came across a round called the "17 Shrew" which was built on a shortened 17 fireball, i think there are others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 I did think about Trail boss in the 222rem but read alot of people could not get consistant accuracy or the 22-250AI. thanks for heads up with the powder, I trickle all my loads now. G You have to trickle carefully on accurate scales with TB ,,,,,,,if all you want is a harder hitter 100 yarder buy a tub of TB and give it a go ,,,,,,,otherwise another rifle ,,,another scope etc etc,,,,,O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner Posted October 13, 2016 Report Share Posted October 13, 2016 I came across a round called the "17 Shrew" which was built on a shortened 17 fireball, i think there are others. If you search hard enough theres allot , 22 tcm is another unusual perfect candidate & is based on the 223 rem case and available ammo ! now if they did it in 17 tcm ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogfox1 Posted October 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 If you search hard enough theres allot , 22 tcm is another unusual perfect candidate & is based on the 223 rem case and available ammo ! now if they did it in 17 tcm ! Hi, Many thanks for the heads up on the TCM looks interesting, don't know I missed that one, think I must of confused it with the ccm. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogfox1 Posted October 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 You have to trickle carefully on accurate scales with TB ,,,,,,,if all you want is a harder hitter 100 yarder buy a tub of TB and give it a go ,,,,,,,otherwise another rifle ,,,another scope etc etc,,,,,OHi, Many thanks for the update, sounds like I need a milligram scale then. Just out of interest how do you get on with fouling with trail boss, can you get 10 to 15 shots with out loss of accuracy. Hoping to keep at least 1/2 moa or near at 100. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogfox1 Posted October 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 Also I thought about low loads with H4895 has anyone tried it in a 222 or a short- barrelled a 22-250AI. Will contact Hodgdon and see if they have any data for the 22-250AI. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FGYT Posted October 14, 2016 Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 Is Trail Boss available again Edgar Bros told me the had none and couldn't get it as it wasn't being made at the moment (at the shooting show Feb) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted October 14, 2016 Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 G,you ask for a highly desireable cartridge-a cf with better energy than the rf 17HMR; the next preference though complicate things-NOT Hornet based,and essentially a 100y bunny shooter without the power of the 222 (etc). Hmmmmm.....well,let's be clearer...otherwise,it's a book... "a bit more energy than 17HMR" which has 17vmax@2530 fps for 240 ft lb... ....fine,the HMR is adequate for energy,so how much more....presumably less-a lot less-than the 222 Rem class around 1000 ft lb...and that includes the Fireball at around 900+ The Hornet has been the traditional candidate 40g@2800 for 772 ft lb....but you don't want a Hornet based cartridge....since the 20th century got going (though the black powder performaance has been much improved,as in the modern data). The gap has been filled-exotica excepted,perhaps -by rfs -the 22WRFmag with around 325ftlb ; the new 17WSM with 20g@3000fps giving 400ft lb. Now,that 17WSM performance looks ball park-but it's not a cf....and the 1968 5mm Rem mag(30g@2300 352 ft lbs) failed commercially. I'd make a 'case' for the 17Hornet,since the case is really fairly different from the old Hornet,necked down,blown out and sharp shouldered;and we have 20g@ 3650 for 590 ft lbs-pretty well meets the specs? Now,if this isn't acceptable,or is too easy-lacking any development and definitely no wildcatting,we get into a quite different ball game...and a complex one at that...eg Bruce Potts devotes some 13 pages to varmint wildcats,sensible but ...brief....The 1947 definitive Landis "22 Caliber varmint rifles' runs to some 515 pages,and there are few glossy pictures padding it out,it's all data and relevant discussion of the joys and woes of wildcatting....needless to say,there are lots,but the effort was always to get better than Hornet performance,not less (Landis surmised that velocities in the 1500-2000 class were not conducive to accuracy,but they were not really after that modst performance in US. A vast array of increasingly potent numbers were developed-wildcatters had whole families of cartridges,and there were quite a few such experimenters.....Newton (Charles,not Isaac-though everyone is bound by that Newton!),Lovell,Kilbourn,Lindahl,Ackley,Gebby ,Donaldson,Niedner,Canadians et al,of course,somewhat restricted by components then available...but you get the picture-not much was not tried,and some still stands comparison today.(like the Swift?-the 220 Wilson Arrow was as good-and yes,it's the LE Wilson who made the arbor hand dies,or outclass it with the Schnerrling-Sedgley 22-4000-from the 7 mauser,just like the much latter 224 Clarke...unfortunately the 22-400 allowed a Swift to chamber and destroy..so it was quietly dropped....but to our tale.... I mentioned the shortened .965",15g@3100 Hornet based 17 Squirel (nowadays also a 20,as are many others);the Bee based are short fatter cases,which can be light loaded,then there the host of modern Vartags,Slammers,TNTs,Terminators,Classi, and the PPC and BR s...and general WHYs,all way above our energy ceiling... What might just fit all round,is the 14-221 Walker (or 14 Walker Hornet) as it gives 15G @4000,534ftlb-there are a few 14 walkers in UK,so another is feasible...or for a serious challenge in wildcatting,one of the 10/12 cal Eichenbergers (necked 30 carbine) These guys haemorhage velocity alarmingly (BC approching zero,I'd guess) so are satisfyingly short range. The Walker seems the best established relatively....and fits all your criteria... A good account of this kind of adventure is Vince Sullivan's article "Building a Wildcat' in the May 2012 Guns Magazine....get you in the mood/warn off/promise valhalla,as the case (sorry) may be.... OK,thanks for getting me back into Landis-what a delight,with little new under the ballistic sun in this niche,but a must read -on a wet day-for anyone serious about this kind of hobby....and an eye opener to the problems and delights,if you are infected. There are only a very limited number of options for a strictly rook and rabbit 100 yard cf accuracy cartridge with but modest energy levels-one reason the unfortunate 17 HMR was so popular and the new WSM might be...(and yes,I know the HRFM was good for a bit more,when it worked) but then we meet the rather tasty 17 Hornet cf (no issues with that ...yet). All the larger case numbers are way too powerful-even the 221 Fireballs are 225y comforably...ie 222 territory,which you do not to approach...( avoiding the Hornet case ( and presumably Bee too) really limits options too I'd look very closely at Onehole's very savvy suggestions for loading down the existing options in the 222 cf class cases,and gunner is also in the research stage on a similar holy grail of short (range) cartridges... onwards and upwards ....to the promised Landis ! gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted October 14, 2016 Report Share Posted October 14, 2016 Hi, Many thanks for the update, sounds like I need a milligram scale then. Just out of interest how do you get on with fouling with trail boss, can you get 10 to 15 shots with out loss of accuracy. Hoping to keep at least 1/2 moa or near at 100. G Hi,,,,Ordinary quality scales are just fine ,,,,no fouling problems noticed and very clean burning. I,ve shot off over 30 rounds before ,,,,accuracy remains static.My 223 generally maintains 3/4 MOA the PPC easily 1/2 MOA,,,all given good conditions,,,,,,,Lots of fun to be had with TB downloads,,,,hugely rduced recoil,,barrel stays cool,,,no stress on anything ,,,longer barrel life? gotta be I should think,,,,,,probably loads of accurate nodes to be found ,,,,,,,I only tried one load in the PPC having decided to just up the 223 load a bit and bingo,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I,m happy at around 1700-1800 fps but you can easily get more ,,,,,,,these loads don't even begin to change primer shape. I,m using mag primers by the way but not sure whether I need to???they work so not looking to experiment any further. I,ve gone straight from downloads to full power loads without cleaning and no problems with immediate return to full power zero.,,,,,,,,,O I should explain my dial ups from previous post,,,,,,My rifles are full power zeroed at 200yds,,,,,,to run a "100" yard zero for downloads I have to dial up 3MOA for the 223 and 2MOA for the PPC,,,its just the way its tunred out for these rifles,,,,,,dial up is necessary given the lower velocity,,,,,,your "rifle/rifles" dial ups will very probably be different,,,,,,,,,,O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted October 16, 2016 Report Share Posted October 16, 2016 Hi, I fancy a small centre-fire as a replacement for my rimfires, something with a little more energy than the 17Hmr. Top end fully covered with 222 etc and above. I do not really want a hornet or a round based on the hornet. As I would like it to built on a Remington , something like a Fireball which would have a short mag and more likely to feed to feed with less problems. A 17, 20 or 22 ? Case preparation and load development is part of fun , so not a problem. Has anyone had built a small round based on a set back / shortened fireball, 222 or 30 carbine case etc. Only looking for around an accurate 100 yds for Rabbits, vermin etc with a good sound moderator. I would be interested if anyone has any suggestions. G I built a couple of 5.7 Johnson Spitfires on M1 carbines back when the commercial barrels were available. Excellent little cartridge that fell short of marketing expectations in North America. I think i still have a reamer for it somewhere. I also had a 14 Walker. I spent so much time getting it up and running that i lost interest and sold it. I owned the 17 Mach IV back in its infancy as well and killed plenty of coyote with it. Were i looking to replace my .22 Hornet and .223, I would look at a CZ 527 in 22i Fireball. I think it's the best of both worlds. Load a light, frangible bullet and have fun.~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner Posted October 16, 2016 Report Share Posted October 16, 2016 Here's a couple of pics on a 17 TCM , from another forum - small caliber club. Back in 2014 , his forum name? 17 TCM . Bullets were 20 grain Zmax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted October 16, 2016 Report Share Posted October 16, 2016 I wonder how well that round feeds.~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 I doubt it would in a b\A rifle. But sure some magic could be worked by some Smith's so that it would. Anyone have any idea which action would be best? I'm thinking cz527 or Sako old style. Lots of cz,s to buy ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 Just a little more on these fascinating-and sometimes frustrating-little cartridges-Andrew mentions the 5.7 Johnsto Spitfire in the M1 copies-remember it (not for UK) -hardly likely to be a bunny rifle-maybe fun of course,like the 30 Carbine itself..... 17Shrew was essentially a much reduced 223rem,ending up with case length .985",and the necks also turned down (.197). AT least three dies were needed to form it-custom,of course.One problem-and it tends to be generic in these endeavours-was that the donor rifle action (17Rem700) was just too long,and the extracted case was dropped rather than ejected....Customriflesandbullets company advertised 17 Shrew brass at $280/100. The 17 HeBee was one of the bettter 218Bee parent items (poor Bee-introduced in a lever action rifle...not an auspicious start for a varmintingrig)...but the Hebee offeren 20g@3500fps- but the competition-the 17 Ackley Bee,slightly more blown out- offered a tad more.Bee brass might be stronger than Hornet. The Fireball of course beat all these easily,when it came along. (The Fireball is a slightly shortened factory 222rem,designed for the Rem XP100 pistol,which could not quite burn all the 222rem powder....) The 17 TCM is interesting,being a short Fireball-or even shorter 222. (T for Tucson,C for Craig and M for Micromagnum). TCM brass was US available,though custom dies would be needed (as with many of these guys),but such brass isn't typical cheap,or worse,with sustained availablity. ( I know,half the fun is.....) .It's design application was for semi auto pistols,but of course given it's parent, a rifle could easily be so chambered. Seems to be a short 223 designed for military pistol applications,at a case length of 1.022",40g@2800 and 696 ft lb....so it's a bit longer than a 9mm parabellum.... The same Craig had designed the 5mm Craig,with conversion of Rem 591/2 rifles from 5mmRem Mag to a centre fire cartridge. Aguila seeem to have promised ammo for both 5mms (? but isn't now available?). The 5 mm as rf gave 30g@2400and 410 ft lb/38g@2100 and 372 ft lb-just about perfect 100 bunny medicine -trajectory was 50y .2,100y 0,150y -3 inches .The 17 HMR is ..5/0/-4.5 aand 22WRFM .6/0/-4.5 ...which really fit the bill nicely-no wonder the 17HMR had promise,until..... There are a whole bunch of ammo variaations on the military FN 5.7x28-also meant as a replacement for the 9mm pistol cartridge,eg 31g@2350 and 394 ft lb.;or the 224Boz a necked 10mm auto 50g@2500 with modest 'armor piercing' pretensions....I think Fiocchi (US) and Federal do ammo,for limited civilian use (pistol?)-they do evidence the move to pistol capacity cases for relatively low power ammo-and don't seem to offer much that the hotter rfs can't (eg 17WSM rf),or the older K Hornets....without the complications...maybe... Of course,the Fireball and on up just blow away more modest cartridges....and now offer very little challenge for the avid wildcatter/engineeer...the kind of guy who makes his own lego in titanium-and very nice too. AND tthe Fireballs have way too much pop for the initial 100y only brief.Stalking back a hundred more yards from bunny did get tedious,and was still near enough a 100% shot anyhow-as it should be...) :-) None of the abve really had much commercial civilian sporter success-much easier off the shelf options are available (17HRFM eg,and perhaps the newish 17 Hornet-though that is more potent )..and after all,the 22FB class will do it all and a lot more.... Actions-well CZs are often mentioned: repeaters are fraught with issues using small fat for length cartridges anyhow. The new Howa mini action 223 ( a bit shorter) might be a contender (well,not a Contender)-but you can see its worth a look. refs try the "Small Caliber Club" forum;or Saubier gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogfox1 Posted October 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 Many thanks for all the replies. The TCM,being a short Fireball is quite an interesting round and could fit the bill. Not sure about the 17 and wondered about a 20 or 22 instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 The TCM is indeed a 224 caliber as originally designed (no doubt the intrepid wildcatter could make a 20 or 17 also (the specs were for the 22 version : 40g,2800fps,696ft lb;the case is a proprietary bottle neck,and it's short indeed-case is 1.022 " (221 FB is 1.400") and with a special deep seated bullet it can fit a Glock magazine....remember,it's a pistol design.... For anyone who really feels an serious itch needing scratched: .14 Flea ,a necked 32ACP ( Eichelberger et al had three very similar designs) and my suggested ultimate challenge : .10 BB (Bug Buster),based on the rf zimmer patrone 22BB cap,though the .1 might be more a hundred inch number. The 2.7x9mm Kolibri pistol ammo -3g@600fps for 3ftlb- is strictly a domestikitten,though could be modified,-whatt can't be- but is essentially unobtainium. gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sakonut Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 Hi , I know of a very nice 17 rem for sale built on a SAKO action I think it a complete kit , don't know if it includes the scop. Get in touch if you are interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogfox1 Posted October 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 "The TCM is indeed a 224 caliber as originally designed (no doubt the intrepid wildcatter could make a 20 or 17 also (the specs were for the 22 version : 40g,2800fps,696ft lb;the case is a proprietary bottle neck,and it's short indeed-case is 1.022 " (221 FB is 1.400")" My thought would be to try and find an accuracy node around 2200 to 2400 fps which should give a good flat trajectory out to 120 yds and with the reduced pressures and hopefully the muzzle blast. Also I am trying to locate some Trail Boss to see what kind of performance I would get out of my current guns, no one has any locally. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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