.308 neck size question...

[Will_]

I'm just getting started with reloading. At the moment I'm just double checking all my equipment, measurements etc.

 

When I neck size my .308 cases with my Classic Lee Loader, ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEl9wZyabc ) the internal width of the neck ends up too tight for my .308 Lee case length gauge ( http://www.sportsmanguncentre.co.uk/lee-case-length-gauge-and-shell-holder )

 

I'm trying to figure out if:
a. My Lee Loader is making the neck sizes too tight.
b. My case length gauge is slightly too wide.
c. This is normal and nothing to worry about.
d. None of the above!

 

My internal neck width (post neck sizing) are around .299 - .300
The cases are Lapua. Straight out of the box, the internal neck width of the cases are generally between .302 to .304
My.308 Lee case length gauge is .304 wide.
The bullets I'll be using are Sierra Matchking 155 bullets.

 

Thanks, and apologies if my terminology is all over the place.

 

Will

[onehole]

Not familiar with the workings of "the loader" but answer is "a" and insering a 308 bullet into .299-300 is way over the desired pinch of say two to three thou commonly produced with a Lee Neck sizing die.With respect Will try and sit down with an experienced reloader if you can,,,,,,,,O

[Will_]

Thank you. I'll be getting started under the supervision of an experienced reloader. Not many people seem to have experience of Lee Loaders though and I wanted to throw this question out there. Tapping the bullet rather than pressing to seat it won't make a difference to the optimum case internal neck width will it? If not (and I don't imagine it will) I think I may have a faulty bit of kit.

[The Gun Pimp]

The best advice I'd give:

 

Try to avoid things made by Lee.(Although their Cast Classic Press is OK)

Always full-length size your brass.(But no need to size new 'out of the box' Lapua)

Buy some Forster dies.

 

Where are you Will? As 'onehole' suggests - sitting down with an experienced reloader would be beneficial.

[Otisthedog]

I use a Lee Loader for my .243. I reload Norma cases from factory rounds that I have fired (in the same rifle). I trim the cases with the Lee length gauge and cutter, and it needs to be done before sizing otherwise the gauge won't fit in the case neck...

 

Lee Loaders are a bit slow but they work well. A group of four rounds whacked together with a hammer!

[drum]

I used to load with one of these. Made good, accurate ammunition. As already stated by otis, trim before sizing. Also don't try to sink the case head out of site into the die. As long as you're consistent, if the case head is just slightly proud thats should be fine. I used a wooden mallet if i remember right. This stopped you from seating the case too deep.

Drum

[VarmLR]

I use a Lee Breechlock Challenger press and Lee FL dies (plus some RCBS and Redding neck dies). With Lapua brass, I'm not getting internal neck sizes anywhere as tight as .3. Seems a bit on the slender side? Just measured a few and they averaged .306 to internal (hard to get an accurate measurement with the thickness of my vernier jaws though for internal measurements) and .335 to .336 external (pre-bullet seated). The Lee dies are ok. RCBS ones I use are far nicer and the Redding ones poorer (base model). Seen some very good groups shot by guys using a Lee Loader and they just seem to get the consistency right and take their time.

[Martin52]

I'm just getting started with reloading. At the moment I'm just double checking all my equipment, measurements etc.

 

When I neck size my .308 cases with my Classic Lee Loader,....the internal width of the neck ends up too tight for my .

 

My internal neck width (post neck sizing) are around .299 - .300

The cases are Lapua. Straight out of the box...

The bullets I'll be using are Sierra Matchking 155 bullets.

Will,

 

This article might assist:

 

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/expander-mandrels-and-neck-tension

 

Basically, the necks require expanding before seating a projectile. See also www.kmshooting.com

 

When using new Lapua brass I always run an expander through the necks before seating (I also use 155 gr SMK's).

 

There's lots to read, www.6mmbr.com is just one good site - go there and do a search for case preparation.

 

Martin.

[MJR]

Buy a good set of f/l dies, you'll need them sooner or later and forget about neck sizing alone if you are using your rifle for anything but dedicated BR shooting. If you want to try different neck tension then you can get F/l dies that use neck bushings also, here:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/668734/redding-type-s-bushing-full-length-sizer-die-308-winchester

Personally I just use Forster f/l dies as GP's recommendation and they are very good.

[Will_]

Thank you for all the replies.

 

The replies from people who use Lee Loaders about having to trim the case length before neck sizing makes it sound like Lee Loaders may resize necks a little on the tight side.

So I think the answer may be a combination of a. My Lee Loader is making the neck sizes too tight. and c. This is normal and nothing to worry about.

I'm a little concerned that the excessive neck sizing may slightly limit my brass life expectancy but as long as it's safe, and as long as the bullet seats nicely, I'll make a small batch for inspection (by an experienced reloader) and testing.

Lee Loaders have certainly been around long enough, and have held some pretty impressive records for long range shooting. If they do neck size .006 tighter than press resizers, I'm happy to trust them. I'm just glad I haven't bought a dud.

I'm surprised there isn't more info out there on this issue. I guess Lee Loaders aren't used much these days for precision shooting.

[Martin52]

 

I'm a little concerned that the excessive neck sizing may slightly limit my brass life expectancy....

If they do neck size .006 tighter than press resizers....

 

Will,

On the first point, excessive sizing will have a detrimental effect on your brass, you may find after a few reloads that the case necks start to split so watch out for that. The Lee Loader may be fine to get you started, given you have already bought it, but depending on your shooting "goals" and as you advance your reloading knowledge you may well trade up.

On the second point, if that measurement is correct, you have at least twice the amount of neck tension needed. If you can add an expander mandrel to your reloading process that should assist the neck tension issue, not the over-working however.

Martin.

[22lrman]

I have the same kit in 308, with SMK 155 and have no problems.

Just make sure you set the neck sizing die depth, in the thread on the press, correctly before use, and no need to swing on the handle. You can actually vary the finished diameter ever so slightly by varying the pressure on the handle. Be consistent if you can but it's not too sensistive in reality. Firm but not, 'crowbar' force.

I always use the factory crimp tool after seating the bullet, so I don't need to neck size too tightly anyway. Use the bullet seating die rather than trying to hand seat the bullet. Its much more consistent.

 

Are you measuring with a vernier or another tool of some sort. Easy to make errors trying to use vernier, not really suited for the task of the internal neck measurement of a 308 case.

 

If you are loading for accuracy on the same (bolt action) gun, it's better to just neck size rather than full length size each time. If you full length each time you lose the benefit of fire forming to your chamber, and work the brass harder.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Edit:

BTW there is absolutely nothing wrong with LEE loading kits. The kit can be very accurate in my experience and produces good ammunition. The equipment may not be as 'refined' as others, but then look at the prices. Excellent value for money.

[Will_]

If you can add an expander mandrel to your reloading process that should assist the neck tension issue, not the over-working however.

Thanks Martin. I'll see how I go, but that's certainly something I'll look into.

It looks like I'll need a press for that though.

 

Thanks for your reply 22lrman, but are you speaking about a Lee Press? The Lee Loader is something different: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEl9wZyabc It's a crazy little reloading kit! The gentleman in the shop didn't even realise what it was. He thought it was just a set of dies in the box

I have heard a lot of positive feedback for Lee products which echo yours. For the money, it seems like a good place for me to get started...

[Laurie]

The Lee Loader has no neck-expand function. That is, it only moves the brass one way, downsize. Standard press mounted dies have a 2-step action - sizing down, then pulling the case over an expander button to get roughly correct neck tension.

 

The reason in both cases is variable neck thickness between makes and lots of brass. So, the die manufacturer has to assume the thinnest lot of the thinnest brass on the market is being sized and initially size too much downwards. In an ordinary die, this is compensated for by the return move / expand function. There is no such option with the 'Loader'. So, it might work very well indeed with thin brass such as older Norma 308, but provide excessive neck tension with a thick wall example. Over the years, I've used out of the box 308 that ranged from 12 thou' to just over 16.

 

The 'Loader' is a good way to get started and/or for somebody whose output is very low and economical reloads with minimum outlay on tools etc is a primary objective, but it has severe limitations.

[Will_]

The reason in both cases is variable neck thickness between makes and lots of brass. So, the die manufacturer has to assume the thinnest lot of the thinnest brass on the market is being sized and initially size too much downwards. In an ordinary die, this is compensated for by the return move / expand function. There is no such option with the 'Loader'.

Thanks Laurie,

 

That's really helpful. I hadn't realised about variable neck thickness. I thought it was all standardised, but now that makes perfect sense to me.

[gbal]

Will,you'd think so ,but no.

 

SAAMI (and CIP in Europe) standardise (within stated tolerances) the outside/chamber measures,but otherwise there can be and typically are differences-in metal thickness,and metallurgy, and importantly internal capacity (usually expressed as cc water volume ). Evan in different batches/vintages of the same make...This can account for reloading differences,at advanced levels...but also can affect basics,as here.

 

A very good source on all this,cartridge by cartridge is "Accurate Shooter" -and it's very good on advanced reloading too- though you do not need every such gizmo.....yet.....it's all just something (more) to be aware of and deal with as /when need be.

We've all been there,and revisit from time to time-just ask!

 

gbal

[Will_]

We've all been there,and revisit from time to time-just ask!

 

gbal

 

Thanks gbal,

 

The advice everyone has given has been really helpful. I feel like the last couple of responses have really got to the crux of the issue that I was having.

 

All the best,

 

Will

[22lrman]

Hi Will

Ah ok misread, thought you had a press setup.

I believe the Lee Challenger starter press kit can be had for less than £200 with dies and everything you need. Much easier to use.

 

best of luck.

Rob

[Will_]

Hi Will

Ah ok misread, thought you had a press setup.

I believe the Lee Challenger starter press kit can be had for less than £200 with dies and everything you need. Much easier to use.

 

best of luck.

Rob

Thanks Rob,

I may well go down the press route in a year or 2. The Lee Loader was under £30 and seemed like the cheapest way to get me shooting

It certainly has its limitations though!