Hawke Endurance 4-16x50 & 6-24×50 223/308 vs Sightron S-tac 4-20x50 MOA

[pengo]

Hi everyone.

 

I'm looking for a scope that I can use on a .223 or.308 for future varminting, as well as plinking/zeroing at 100 and 200 yards.

 

I have seen both the Hawkes and the Sightron (available soon) at the BSS, but was wondering if anyone has used the Hawke with this reticle and could tell me their thoughts/experiences with it and whether the reticle range points actually work? I also like the idea of the illumination on this, which the Sightron won't have.

 

I'm sure there are other scopes out there that are better suited, but as I'm putting together a new set up, I have to bear in mind the initial costs; also whether it may be worth waiting for the new Sightron.

 

Any relevant input welcome, as always.

 

Cheers. Paul

[Mick Miller]

The Hawke are actually pretty good these days, not looked through that particular scope but I can't help thinking the Sightron will be much better. The s-tac I have on my 243 is excellent.

 

Not sure about the illuminated reticle thing, I've never bothered with one myself and generally take the batteries out and forget about it.

[gbal]

Paul, I have not used these scopes,but others will have and can comment on value etc. Side focus is useful.

Hawke claim the calibrations provide " down range accuracy to levels never before thought"...

"the 223/308 Marksman reticule.....matches the ballistic profile of the popular 223/308.."

 

The reticule has centre cross,and small crosses marked 2-600,with 50y dot between.

OK-I personally like this kind of simple clear multiple dot/hash facility on the reticule.

BUT:

remember even if 'accurate'-it can only be so at one magnification setting,and Hawke have chosen the highest mag.That's fine for longer range use. Is it accurate....well depends a bit on "what you have thought before..." and of course target size. Here is the ballistic drop data for some 'popular 223/308' commercial loads (all 24 inch barrels,and SAAMI spec,so comparable in pressure etc....):

 

 

Hornady 40 Vmax@3800 BC .2 100 +.9 200 0 300 -5.5 400-17.6 500 -39.2 600 -74.9

Hornady 55vmax @ 3250 BC.255 +1.4 0 -7 -21.4 -45.9 -84.2

BH 68@2850 BC.339 +1.9 0 -8.3 -24.6 -51 -90.2

Fed77@2720 BC.372 +2.1 0 -9 -26.1 -54.1 -94.4

 

BH 155@ 2750 BC .435 +1.9 0 -8.3 -24 -48.7 -84

Horn 168@2700 BC.475 +2 0 -8.4 -24.3 - 48.9 -83.8

Fed175@2600 BC.513 +2.2 0 -9.1 -25.8 -51.8 -88.9

 

 

You can judge for yourself.....

 

in 223 for example,the differnt loads here have a POI differnce of 5.5 to 9 inches low at 300-so one dot on the reticule can't meet what I'd consider small varmint accuracy,though useable maybe,with mental correction....3 inches might be a miss,or ethically worse on ''varmints' otherwise. But 400 yards is too far (17.6 to 26" ie 8 inches with the same dot is a miss for one of the loads....).

 

308 does better within 308 loads....at 300,there isn't much between them(.8") and at 600 its still within 5"

 

Slightly less good news is that as distance increases,what might be OK for one calibre becomes increasingly out for the other....(approx 7-9 inches at 300;but it's 39-51.8 by 500).

 

You can either live with this or minimise by choosing a 223 load and a 308 load that are ballistically closer,and sticking with those.

 

Remember these are comparative-changing zero won't help much (200 seemed best here),AND it is actually unlikely that your rifle/mounts etc will be exactly as the Hawke calibration...so you always need to know just what eg 300 means (it could actually for your rig be 278,301,315 yards etc.

That's just immutable physics,and ok when you know.

 

Of course if you just want to hit (mostly) large target to 600 yards,then it'll probably not be too bad;but it isn't for me good enough for secure hits on small vermin.

I would not quite say a level of poor accuracy never before thought,but I've given up on catapults.

 

Don't be put off-either you get to know what the calibrations mean for calibres,accept approximate 'hits',or fine tune with dialling...most distance varminters choose the latter.

Oh,and work on your windage estimation.....it won't be nearly as close as the above ballistic calculations-so you'll probably miss sideways anyhow,at first...but it's learnable andsome reticules will help-you don't have to use them,after all....but I'd far rather have some opton for plinking,at least...good shooting/enjoy.

 

gbal

[Ah8217bris]

How about sightron s111 6-24x50?

[pengo]

Paul, I have not used these scopes,but others will have and can comment on value etc. Side focus is useful.

Hawke claim the calibrations provide " down range accuracy to levels never before thought"...

"the 223/308 Marksman reticule.....matches the ballistic profile of the popular 223/308.."

 

The reticule has centre cross,and small crosses marked 2-600,with 50y dot between.

OK-I personally like this kind of simple clear multiple dot/hash facility on the reticule.

BUT:

remember even if 'accurate'-it can only be so at one magnification setting,and Hawke have chosen the highest mag.That's fine for longer range use. Is it accurate....well depends a bit on "what you have thought before..." and of course target size. Here is the ballistic drop data for some 'popular 223/308' commercial loads (all 24 inch barrels,and SAAMI spec,so comparable in pressure etc....):

 

 

Hornady 40 Vmax@3800 BC .2 100 +.9 200 0 300 -5.5 400-17.6 500 -39.2 600 -74.9

Hornady 55vmax @ 3250 BC.255 +1.4 0 -7 -21.4 -45.9 -84.2

BH 68@2850 BC.339 +1.9 0 -8.3 -24.6 -51 -90.2

Fed77@2720 BC.372 +2.1 0 -9 -26.1 -54.1 -94.4

 

BH 155@ 2750 BC .435 +1.9 0 -8.3 -24 -48.7 -84

Horn 168@2700 BC.475 +2 0 -8.4 -24.3 - 48.9 -83.8

Fed175@2600 BC.513 +2.2 0 -9.1 -25.8 -51.8 -88.9

 

 

You can judge for yourself.....

 

in 223 for example,the differnt loads here have a POI differnce of 5.5 to 9 inches low at 300-so one dot on the reticule can't meet what I'd consider small varmint accuracy,though useable maybe,with mental correction....3 inches might be a miss,or ethically worse on ''varmints' otherwise. But 400 yards is too far (17.6 to 26" ie 8 inches with the same dot is a miss for one of the loads....).

 

308 does better within 308 loads....at 300,there isn't much between them(.8") and at 600 its still within 5"

 

Slightly less good news is that as distance increases,what might be OK for one calibre becomes increasingly out for the other....(approx 7-9 inches at 300;but it's 39-51.8 by 500).

 

You can either live with this or minimise by choosing a 223 load and a 308 load that are ballistically closer,and sticking with those.

 

Remember these are comparative-changing zero won't help much (200 seemed best here),AND it is actually unlikely that your rifle/mounts etc will be exactly as the Hawke calibration...so you always need to know just what eg 300 means (it could actually for your rig be 278,301,315 yards etc.

That's just immutable physics,and ok when you know.

 

Of course if you just want to hit (mostly) large target to 600 yards,then it'll probably not be too bad;but it isn't for me good enough for secure hits on small vermin.

I would not quite say a level of poor accuracy never before thought,but I've given up on catapults.

 

Don't be put off-either you get to know what the calibrations mean for calibres,accept approximate 'hits',or fine tune with dialling...most distance varminters choose the latter.

Oh,and work on your windage estimation.....it won't be nearly as close as the above ballistic calculations-so you'll probably miss sideways anyhow,at first...but it's learnable andsome reticules will help-you don't have to use them,after all....but I'd far rather have some opton for plinking,at least...good shooting/enjoy.

 

gbal

Thank you everybody for your feedback and gbal for a very informative and helpful response.

 

I think that I will be going for the Sightron, as it would make more sense to use a known value every time (dialling in with repeatable clicks) rather than having to "guess" that the Hawke reticle is going to be correct.

 

All I need to do now, is wait for the new S-tac to come into the UK - unless I can get a secondhand 6-24x50 MOAR...

 

Thank you all again, chaps.

 

Cheers. Paul

[David Hancock]

Pengo, you are comparing a £349 scope to a £800 odd scope, but for my constructive tuppence, I have a Hawke Sidewinder 4-16x 50 10x 1/2 mil dot. It was on my 22lr, now on my HW100.

 

For the money, and for the "in real life" value it delivers, it is superb. This is compared to my two Nightforce SHV's. The glass is excellent, the ret is to my preference, crisp with little aberration, and the illumination crisp and easy to use. The feel and finish is very good but the parallax dial is stiff as hell.

 

I find dial up / down spot on. It would happily go on my .223 but I have the NF

 

I cannot comment on the Sightrons.

[David Hancock]

Pengo, you are comparing a £300 odd scope to a £800 odd scope, but for my constructive tuppence, I have a Hawke Sidewinder 4-16x 50 10x 1/2 mil dot. It was on my 22lr, now on my HW100.

 

For the money, and for the "in real life" value it delivers, it is superb. This is compared to my two Nightforce SHV's. The glass is excellent, the ret is to my preference, crisp with little aberration, and the illumination crisp and easy to use. The feel and finish is very good but the parallax dial is stiff as hell.

 

I find dial up / down spot on. It would happily go on my .223 but I have the NF

 

I cannot comment on the Sightrons.

[spanner]

I have a 6 - 24 x 50 Hawke with the LR dot and have had a Sightron, Hawke have raised their game and they really are excellent VFM the Sightron is just not worth the extra not to me anyway. I have just put the 3 - 9 x 40 Hawke with the Reticule for 22 Subs on my Rimmy and again a fabulous scope for the money nicely made great reticule and a nice crisp image, I don't know how they do it for the money.

[The Gun Pimp]

Pengo - interested in a Sightron 8-32 with LRMOA ret? £600 plus postage or collect it from Diggle.

[Mick Miller]

Their binos are pretty tasty too. I have a set of Frontier EDs and they're fabulous for the money.

[GarethM]

Pengo - interested in a Sightron 8-32 with LRMOA ret? £600 plus postage or collect it from Diggle.

Vince,

 

I would be interested. If it is available, I can sort it out tomorrow.

 

Gareth

[GarethM]

Vince,

 

Tried to PM you,but I think your inbox is full.

 

Gareth

[pengo]

Pengo - interested in a Sightron 8-32 with LRMOA ret? £600 plus postage or collect it from Diggle.

Good evening Vince,

 

I would normally be very interested in this scope from you, but it is "too much scope" for what I'm currently looking for; but if it's still available in a few weeks time, when I'll be more likely to need something like this for my next rifle, then I'll be in touch.

 

Thank you very much for your offer.

 

Cheers. Paul