Liberals and "modern" thinking

[dylan5588]

This man makes a lot of sense.

[snc_2010]

I implore anyone who comments on this thread to only talk about liberalism if they really know what it is.

[Re-Pete]

Well, "liberal" is defined as "Generous, noble minded, broad minded, not bound by authority or traditional orthodoxy"

(Chambers twentieth century dictionary)...........................................that doesn't sound like the anti-gun crowd to me.

More like the very people who are protesting about the probability of having some form of control imposed on gun ownership...........

 

H/man

[gbal]

Hauptman,I think scn means 'liberal' in the US sense-and more strictly in the current US sense-but didn't provide any conceptualisation to help us.

A dictionary won't capture that-Wikipedia makes a fair go at it,and it's clear that 'liberal' has changed its connotations a bit in the past 60 years or so,in the USA. (as have political labels in the UK-New Labour etc).

It's an interesting idea not to tak about something not understood (can't see it catching on really in politics)but in the context of (US)shootings and Gun Control,the key issues can be discussed without being up on all shades of liberalism/conservatism-eacch of which vary of course in themselves,and do not equate to say Democrats and Replublicans with any real precision. Some sensibly discussable issues are:

Gun control does not prevent mass shootings

Guns are effective as self defence

Criminals can get guns whatever the laws are

Legitimate shooters are unfairly penalised

Gun laws have not worked in the US

Gun laws in other countries have not reduced violence

Crime reflects society,not guns directly.

 

Now most,if not all of these,are issues on which evidence exists and can be used to some effect.

It may well often be the case that the selection of evidence,or more likely its relevance/importance is influenced by ideologies,but there is evidence.

 

 

The allegation that fatherless boys pose an especial problem is not confined to gun crime,or the USA.

If it were to have substance,and it cannot be universally true,it's not clear just what the "Whittle" camp propose to do about it.But that is true of many issues in society,for those more/less "liberal" or adherents to any alternative ideology.

Making videos is one thing,sorting society is another.

 

gbal

[SWShooter]

Hauptman,I think scn means 'liberal' in the US sense-and more strictly in the current US sense-but didn't provide any conceptualisation to help us.

A dictionary won't capture that-Wikipedia makes a fair go at it,and it's clear that 'liberal' has changed its connotations a bit in the past 60 years or so,in the USA. (as have political labels in the UK-New Labour etc).

It's an interesting idea not to tak about something not understood (can't see it catching on really in politics)but in the context of (US)shootings and Gun Control,the key issues can be discussed without being up on all shades of liberalism/conservatism-eacch of which vary of course in themselves,and do not equate to say Democrats and Replublicans with any real precision. Some sensibly discussable issues are:

Gun control does not prevent mass shootings

Guns are effective as self defence

Criminals can get guns whatever the laws are

Legitimate shooters are unfairly penalised

Gun laws have not worked in the US

Gun laws in other countries have not reduced violence

Crime reflects society,not guns directly.

 

Now most,if not all of these,are issues on which evidence exists and can be used to some effect.

It may well often be the case that the selection of evidence,or more likely its relevance/importance is influenced by ideologies,but there is evidence.

 

 

The allegation that fatherless boys pose an especial problem is not confined to gun crime,or the USA.

If it were to have substance,and it cannot be universally true,it's not clear just what the "Whittle" camp propose to do about it.But that is true of many issues in society,for those more/less "liberal" or adherents to any alternative ideology.

Making videos is one thing,sorting society is another.

 

gbal

"Crime reflects society,not guns directly." I thinks that`s Americas biggest problem, gun crime will never drop there until theres a big culture change .

[dylan5588]

You are all know what was implied by the use of the term "Liberal" Read into it what you want, but the message within the clip is very clear,

Adrian

[gbal]

Dylan,with respect,Is not the point that 'liberal' is very loosely used,and not agreed upon-let alone what connotations it carries in USA! It's pejorative when used by conservatives,and vice versa:name calling is no solution."We all know what Labour stands for....Blair and Corbin "....well,not quite ! :-)

 

I understand some of Whittle's points,which is not to say agree or not. He is saying (most?) mass shootings are done by men who had no fathers around when young.

 

Perhaps you could say what 'liberal' denotes,since it's so obvious-not that it actually matters ,as Whittle is just scoring empty points,not solving anything-it's not primarily a party political thing: and just to clarify further,whether I am correct in attributing to Whittle the view of fatherlessness as the causal factor,in US shootings. (most such kids don't shoot anyone,do they?). If so,did you detect just what he proposes to do about such children?

Of course it would be nice if there were no such issues as refugees,and children with imperfect parenting and....yeah,...but that isn't a solution,now is it,given such situations do exist?

 

You have raised important issues,with some implications for shooting,but I don't see any solutions being offered on the video,and that is what we need....irrespective of political hand waving,and cheap shots;those are ....errr....Trump cards,but the issues,and society,deserve better. WHYG? :-)...of course it isn't easy,but that's never been a good reason to get it wrong.

g

[Shuggy]

I learnt long ago not to discuss politics with Americans; and especially not gun politics. I have a theory that many Europeans struggle to have a clear cultural insight into the second amendment and how it features in their beliefs. And it always surprises me just how visceral the Republican/Democrat divide can be.

[Dalua]

I'm not fond of the use in this country of the word 'Liberal' in the modern US sense.