Firearms Licensing Office...

[jay666d]

I'm sure they make it up a s they go along!

 

I've had my FAC now for about 3 years and shoot on 3 separate permissions.

 

I thought that for the up and coming year I'd try once again to get a variation for a larger caliber... Something I could stalk with.

 

I decided to call my Firearms Licensing Office and ask for some advice on the matter...

 

I told them that for the past few months I'd been on a few stalks with a friend, a friend who has been doing this for a long time. Up until now I'd been using one of his rifles, but I'd enjoyed the stalking enough to carry it on and maybe even do some paid stalks up in Scotland. To that end, I'd like to get my own rifle in a suitable caliber.

 

The instant response was a 'Stand-off ish' one... The FAO told me that I should book said stalk in Scotland and then along with confirmation send my variation to them! They would then ring the company to double check my booking!

 

??? Puzzled by this, I said that the paid stalk wasn't an immediate thing... More so accompanying my friend on stalks around his permissions.

 

I was then told that I'd need land, permission & reason for my bigger caliber request... To which I replied that surly an open ticket would make sense so that I could shoot and stalk with my friend?

 

Apparently that is a big No-No! I'm supposed to get my own permission on my friends shooting land, which we all know is easier said than done and then apply for the caliber I want!

 

While we were on that subject the FAO went on to explain, the fact that I'd been shooting/stalking on someone else's permission with their rifle was also a No-No... I'm supposed to call my FAO in advance, tell them where I'm shooting and they'll ring the land owner ahead of me getting there to make sure it's ok!?!?

 

This seems like a lot of work for an office that's only open from 11am - 2pm!

 

I know that it's a privilege to own a firearm and not a right... But some of the hoops you have to jump through are daft!

 

Anybody else had experience like this, or does everybody else just fly through the process?

 

Jay

[Ronin]

You had your FAC 3 years and shoot on 3 permissions,

 

 

May I ask what species you may shoot on these permissions?

[jay666d]

Only Rabbits & Foxes...

 

I have a .17HMR, .22LR & .223.

 

The biggest permission I have has Roe, but the farmer is not keen to name me as another Deer shooter, as understandably he has others named and doesn't himself want to be on the wrong side of any law and under police scrutiny. :-)

[srvet]

The easy way round is to book a stalk locally and jump through their hoop. Are you a member of BASC or similar

[Finman]

Well...in the eyes of the law, you haven't shown "good reason" for your deer legal calibre: no deer on your land, no permission to shoot deer etc etc...having a confirmed booking to shoot deer is "good reason" (although some may even dispute that) and probably your only way forward..,unfortunate, and some may even argue, unjust, yet, an accurate interpretation of the law...

 

Good luck.

 

Finman

[jay666d]

The easy way round is to book a stalk locally and jump through their hoop. Are you a member of BASC or similar

I'm not, but I did look into their membership today...

[Ronin]

You need to find some land where you may have deer as a named species, or start booking stalking to show necessity otherwise the FLO is quite correct in the advice they've given.

 

Joining BASC would open you up to their Arran and Thetford stalking schemes.

[Dustyman]

Friend of mine sent in for a. variation with a letter from another stalker inviting him to shoot when he had a deer calibre rifle and they would nt give him the variation until he put a date on the letter when he was going . He argued he couldn't say that until he had a rifl and it was set up and they still said , no , needed a date , sometime I think they are just awkward for awkwards sake ! I would have loved to have written back with every date on for next year and put on bottom , final date from these to be confirmed !

[Montey]

In Kent I had 308& 243 for target shooting when I wanted to stalk I supplied two letters from professional stackers saying Ide been out with them. On the open ticket thing / any species I need it to shoot goats. Now that realy foxed them!!

[jay666d]

Friend of mine sent in for a. variation with a letter from another stalker inviting him to shoot when he had a deer calibre rifle and they would nt give him the variation until he put a date on the letter when he was going . He argued he couldn't say that until he had a rifl and it was set up and they still said , no , needed a date , sometime I think they are just awkward for awkwards sake ! I would have loved to have written back with every date on for next year and put on bottom , final date from these to be confirmed !

This is what I feel best somes up my situation....

 

I have the invite to stalk, it's just not my permission!

 

Likewise I don't know I want to book in a paid stalk, for them to make an excuse and tell me I still can't have my chosen caliber, only to loose my deposit!

 

If I joined a rifle club, it seems like the sky is the limit for caliber choice... But I suppose then it would be limited to club use only!

 

Joining BASC does seem to be the sensible option.

[Guest Stacka]

I'm lost is it paid for stalking ADHOC or are you buying into a permission?

 

If it's paid for stalking surely they have a estate rifle

[jay666d]

I'm lost is it paid for stalking ADHOC or are you buying into a permission?

If it's paid for stalking surely they have a estate rifle

I'd be stalking with a friend on the land he has permission to stalk on.

 

I have been using one of his rifles, and I could use a rifle an estate provides me.... But it's not the same as using your own!

[Guest Stacka]

I totally agree, why won't the estate offer you a letter of permission

[srvet]

I'm lost is it paid for stalking ADHOC or are you buying into a permission?

If it's paid for stalking surely they have a estate rifle

Exactly so you wouldn't lose out and you will be part way to showing good reason. If you join BDS you will be a member of their rifle club too.

[tony]

Also seriously consider taking DSC level 1, contact BDS, this deer training course is very good indeed and will teach you a great deal about deer stalking, species and safety issues etc, etc, your Firearms department will probably then be more enthusiastic about your request.

Tony.

[Dalua]

You seem to have the opportunity to go stalking with a friend who has authority to let to shoot deer on land where he has a right to do so.

 

I'm a bit puzzled as to why a letter from your friend confirming his intention to take you out on his ground 'as and when' would not, along with your reasonable wish to own a rifle/mod of the appropriate calibre to practice as well as to stalk with, would not constitiute 'good reason to possess'.

[jay666d]

I'm a bit puzzled as to why a letter from your friend confirming his intention to take you out on his ground 'as and when' would not, along with your reasonable wish to own a rifle/mod of the appropriate calibre to practice as well as to stalk with, would not constitiute 'good reason to possess'.

Yup, this letter is not good enough... They want to nail it to specific times, so they can ring the land owner in advance!

 

I said, what happens if my friend calls me at 3 o'clock on a Friday and offers to take me on a stalk the next day...

 

Sometimes shooting is a bit last minute, and there's no way I could inform the FAO!

 

Just to re-cap... I have to inform them even if I go stalking with my friend and use his rifle!

[gbal]

Jay,does your friend have written permission to also offer stalking to someone else on

his permission?That is not clear-he seems to have written permission for himself,but that does not mean he can extend that permission to anyone else,without the written authority of the landowner to do so.If the other person (you) has direct written permisssion from the landowner,that would work,too.

 

(you can probably see that 'a friend (of a friend ) said I could' is not really satisfactory....

 

gbal

[jay666d]

I know that my friend is wise enough not to risk the many years he's owned his FAC taking me stalking when he's not supposed too.

 

He has worked all his permissions for many years and indeed does have the land owners permission to take me stalking there. (The land owner obviously has enough trust in him to make the call on who he sees as suitable to stalk with him)

 

I personally see it as crossing the line, trying to get permission to shoot on my friends permission. And just like one of my permissions, where there is Roe, I don't have permission to shoot them as the land owner worries that the list of people he allows to shoot the Roe is too big!

 

I do understand the 'Good Reason' side of things, and I'm glad that the police don't let just anybody own a firearm...

 

But having a letter from a 'Mentor' isn't good enough because it doesn't contain exact dates is a bit nuts!

[Offroad Gary]

Just to re-cap... I have to inform them even if I go stalking with my friend and use his rifle!

Poppycock!

 

Exactly what crime have you committed if you dont?

[gbal]

I know that my friend is wise enough not to risk the many years he's owned his FAC taking me stalking when he's not supposed too.

He has worked all his permissions for many years and indeed does have the land owners permission to take me stalking there. (The land owner obviously has enough trust in him to make the call on who he sees as suitable to stalk with him)

I personally see it as crossing the line, trying to get permission to shoot on my friends permission. And just like one of my permissions, where there is Roe, I don't have permission to shoot them as the land owner worries that the list of people he allows to shoot the Roe is too big!

I do understand the 'Good Reason' side of things, and I'm glad that the police don't let just anybody own a firearm...

But having a letter from a 'Mentor' isn't good enough because it doesn't contain exact dates is a bit nuts!

 

 

Well,you could be in a less favourable position.Does not your post 3 and para 3 above rather spell out the issue-there is no written permission for you to shoot deer ? You have also given two reasons- landowner does not want multiple shooters and your reluctance to intrude (in separate permissions)...but then is there really a contractual permission as the police might see it....?

The issue is not about 'giving anyone an FAC"-as you have one already, but that 'word of mouth' is not deemed acceptable....the police might reasonable query why clear written authority is not (yet) forthcoming....better to work with that,to see if it can be resolved..the police are not party to any verbal 'ok' given to anyone involved...and understandably don't see that as a satisfactory 'legal' arrangement ....

 

(when you say you might not get the 'calibre' of your choice,that choice would have to be deemed 'suitable'-but limiting the choice to 'suitable' is hardly a burden. Nor is 'cost' likely to impress licensing.Clear written legal permission/contract (as per paid days,too) is-pretty much what they seem to be saying? This chicken and egg is permission first,rifle second....fairly standard,really.

 

Good luck,you are at least part way there....but sporting rights and gentlemen's verbal agreements have been troublesome in the past...especially if the gentlemen cease to agree...( as your own posts imply).BASC/DSC etc is all good advice,which might help-though won't solve the immediate issue-your need for clear written permission to shoot deer on suitable land.

 

gbal

[Dalua]

Yup, this letter is not good enough... They want to nail it to specific times, so they can ring the land owner in advance!

 

I said, what happens if my friend calls me at 3 o'clock on a Friday and offers to take me on a stalk the next day...

 

Sometimes shooting is a bit last minute, and there's no way I could inform the FAO!

 

Just to re-cap... I have to inform them even if I go stalking with my friend and use his rifle!

 

Assuming your friend is indeed able lawfully to take you out stalking on his ground, Ican't see why that isn't a 'good reason'.

 

Given you already have a c/f rifle which you use over land, it does seems as though they're making a bit of a drama over something which ought to be quite straightforward.

[jay666d]

Yeah Dalua, I thought it would be pretty straight forward too!

 

The only thing I can't explain over the Internet is how short and snappy the attitude of the FAO was towards me when I queried this matter!

[poacher]

Gentlemen if I may add my two peneth worth,

First & foremost in any application/grant is "need & use" you must show a need to have the particular calibre, deer management pest/fox control etc you must also have somewhere to use said rifle, non of this is in dispute here but several things are recurring in these posts that make me cringe a little, We do have the right to own these weapons provided we can assure the authorities of the above we don't legally have to take any form of training exam to own our guns & whilst I do agree that they are a very good form of training & knowledge we cant be forced into these actions by any police force in the UK for that it has to be part of Legislation which it is not (& don't think im discouraging anyone form taking part in any safety coarse etc I am not merely that if we are pushed into these things they somehow become unwritten laws that discriminate us all ) secondly you can choose the calibre that you feel comfortable with that is suitable for your needs, Jay ask yourself how many keepers fox shooters vermin shooters up & down the UK use the 243 as an all-round gun applying for a 243 would make you deer legal in any area for deer im sure we have members of this board that shoot everything up to Red s with the 243. As for an "open ticket" if you have possessed firearm for at least a season this is a reasonable request. you should of had reasonable experience with in an entire season to have gain sufficient knowledge & practice to placate any FEO

If however they still refuse each & everytime you receive a new piece of shooting permission ask them to come out accompany you & offer advice on the lands suitability you are not hassling them merely complying to there conditions ,I would be surprised if an open ticket wasn't forth coming quite quickly

Jay if you are still having issues with your firearms dept PM me I,ll forward you my Number & we,ll talk Steve

[jay666d]

Thank you for your input Steve, it's much appreciated!

 

I think because the 'Guidlines' that are set out are free for anybody to interprete however they want it makes it such a grey area. A grey area that each police force seems to deal with differently!

 

And for me personally, and I know this isn't stricktly true but I never want to 'rock the boat' or create waves for myself when it comes to my FAO... Incase they try to make life anymore difficult for me!