barrel thickness

[sean223]

was wondering about barrel thickness. is there a big difference in accuracy ways from a heavy barrel to a sporting barrel. i have a howa 1500 in 223 sporting barrel on a floppy hogue stock. getting a new scope for it, zeiss conquest hd5 5-25x50 and thinking of getting a new stock for it to improve accuracy and long distance shooting. is it a bad idea putting new stock/scope on my sporting barrel or would it be better on a heavy barrel. its main use is for rabbits and foxes out to 500 yards or so, looking some expert advice guys. thanks.

 

 

[gunner]

Sean hi , im no expert ! A better stock would definitely help any laminated or a moulded type like PSE or mcMillan IF you could get the right one and there in stock . BUT also need proper pillar bedding too . With a floated berrel you would almost definitely see better accuracy / consistency thru that sporter barrel .

scope wise , that HD5 is a great choice - i was considering one there just georgous lol. Interested where your buying that from and the price as im still considering one - PM me please on that . The heavier barrel maybe would be a little better at longer range but to get a custom re-barrel with a varmint /heavy contour would be the best part of a grand for a top maker . Good luck buddy

[Tony.H]

sean i can see your buying all the gear for long distsnce shooting but the rifle is a howa, and i am sure that they are only 1:12 twist, you really need something with a faster twist to shoot the heavier and higher BC bullets they will buck the wind better and have more stabillity at 500yards....

the 55s might get you there but the wind is going to be your main problem

 

the tikkas do a 1:8 and have better stocks on them right from the off...

[MrCetrizine]

To the original question on barrel thickness, the main reason for a heavy barrel is that it heats up less quickly and therefore expands less quickly which is what affects accuracy.

Given that you are using it for foxes and rabbits, you aren't going to be firing a lot of shots one after the other so this shouldn't be an issue.

[pork chop]

sean i can see your buying all the gear for long distsnce shooting but the rifle is a howa, and i am sure that they are only 1:12 twist, you really need something with a faster twist to shoot the heavier and higher BC bullets they will buck the wind better and have more stabillity at 500yards....

the 55s might get you there but the wind is going to be your main problem

 

the tikkas do a 1:8 and have better stocks on them right from the off...

bc isn't every thing .a one 1in 12 will do upto 60 gr bullets,yes ditch the stock for something stiffer may be a b/c or a boyds the learn to use what you've got.wind reading and shooting technique at this stage is far more important than bc.when you've learnt these then you could upgrade to better kit if you feel the need.as for barrel weight its fine just don't get it to hot while your practicing

[sean223]

yes mainly for rabbits and foxes so heating the barrel isnt going to happen much. was reading about barrel twist, yes my howa is 1:12 only shooting up to 55 grain i think. i shoot the hornady 53gr supperformance vmax. the gun shoots really well with these 350 yarsd or so on rabbits. so putting new scope/stock should give me some improvement. then next time ill get a heavy barrel riffle and put my hd5 on it, then mite have even more improvement. exciting stuff this and great info on here. thanks again lads.

 

 

long range varminting is my goal..

[Murph]

sean i can see your buying all the gear for long distsnce shooting but the rifle is a howa, and i am sure that they are only 1:12 twist, you really need something with a faster twist to shoot the heavier and higher BC bullets they will buck the wind better and have more stabillity at 500yards....the 55s might get you there but the wind is going to be your main problemthe tikkas do a 1:8 and have better stocks on them right from the off...

There's nothing wrong with howas. My mate has one that's shoots half moa easily. His is 1-12 twist and shoots the hornady 60 gr vmax very well. Approaching 3" 5 shot groups at 600 yards is excellent performance for a relatively cheap out of the box rifle.

[22cf]

I have had fantastic accuracy with an out of the box Tikka T3 Super Varmint with its unbedded synthetic stock, whilst the guys that shoot targets out to 1000m+ may see the benefits of an all singing, all dancing mcmillan stock and bedding I have seen little point in a varminting rifle out to 500m.

 

Come on guys, come clean, how many of you can consistently hit vermin in the field out over 500m

[sean223]

I have had fantastic accuracy with an out of the box Tikka T3 Super Varmint with its unbedded synthetic stock, whilst the guys that shoot targets out to 1000m+ may see the benefits of an all singing, all dancing mcmillan stock and bedding I have seen little point in a varminting rifle out to 500m.

 

Come on guys, come clean, how many of you can consistently hit vermin in the field out over 500m

 

I hope i will be hitting rabbits at that distance and mybe even further when i get my tikka 1:8 twist. what twist is yours? mybe you havnt tryed to shoot that distance or mybe you cant..

[22cf]

I have had Tikka T3's in 222, 223 and 243, I have also regularly shot a friends Tikka T3 in 22-250, some of them have had custom barrels and some were completely standard. I have also been out varminting with friends with semi custom Tikka 6mmbr's shooting the 105amax too. In my long range varminting experience it isnt wise to target small vermin at ranges greater than 500m because the hit rates are not high enough for my liking. If you miss a steel gong at 500m by 2 inches to the right/left its no great problem, but that slight wind variation at 500m that pushes that bullet 2" off target could serious wound and not dispatch the quarry cleanly, I have regularly seen custom 6mmbr's with a sub 50% hit rate on small vermin at 500m which isnt acceptable to me. There is no law that I know that outlaws what you want to do, its left solely down to your own discretion, but I would urge you to practice hitting a 3" gong consistently at 500m before you attempt to shoot at live vermin.

[22cf]

 

I hope i will be hitting rabbits at that distance and mybe even further when i get my tikka 1:8 twist. what twist is yours? mybe you havnt tryed to shoot that distance or mybe you cant..

 

I have had Tikka T3's in 222, 223 and 243, I have also regularly shot a friends Tikka T3 in 22-250, some of them have had custom barrels and some were completely standard. I have also been out varminting with friends with semi custom Tikka 6mmbr's shooting the 105amax too. In my long range varminting experience it isnt wise to target small vermin at ranges greater than 500m because the hit rates are not high enough for my liking. If you miss a steel gong at 500m by 2 inches to the right/left its no great problem, but that slight wind variation at 500m that pushes that bullet 2" off target could serious wound and not dispatch the quarry cleanly, I have regularly seen custom 6mmbr's with a sub 50% hit rate on small vermin at 500m which isnt acceptable to me. There is no law that I know that outlaws what you want to do, its left solely down to your own discretion, but I would urge you to practice hitting a 3" gong consistently at 500m before you attempt to shoot at live vermin.

 

I would be very impressed to see some video footage of you hitting a 3" steel gong at 500m consistently with your 8 twist .223 on your average UK 6-9mph windy day :-)

[gbal]

22 cf....me too!

Sean,heres what happens to 55 g vmax bullets from a 223,3240 fps,10mph wind:

 

drop drift at 300y: 7/10.9 that's just about doable ,perhaps for most shots

 

drop drift at 500y: 45.9/35.1 and that isn't,and here's why:

 

Drop can be clicked in,after laser ranging and will hold if it's a good scope.BUT:

 

Very,very few shooters can judge wind good enough-a 1mph error for a 10 mph wind-all the way out to 500,almost certainly not constant-would be very good indeed....and that means a 10% error which is 3.5 inches-so a miss from that error alone,let alone all the other imperfections in rifle /ammo/shooter-the poi plot is considerably larger than "just" the half moa at 100 x 5 (though thats another-note another-2.5 inches...so some shots will be (3.5+ 2.5 ) ie 6 inches off,not all of them but some.....that should be a reality check-and remember,this is for very good shooters,with a vey secure rest etc.....

 

gbal

 

ps have a look at the Diggle fly shoot results-many top shooters with top equipment-see how many grouped 3 inches ........results were posted on here maybe 3 weeks ago......and grouping three inches isn't the same as three inches and on the gong!!

[sean223]

so shooting varmints at 500 yards cant be done with a 223 regardless of weather conditions?? am not sure about that!! so what distance do you think is po

 

22 cf....me too!
Sean,heres what happens to 55 g vmax bullets from a 223,3240 fps,10mph wind:

drop drift at 300y: 7/10.9 that's just about doable ,perhaps for most shots

drop drift at 500y: 45.9/35.1 and that isn't,and here's why:

Drop can be clicked in,after laser ranging and will hold if it's a good scope.BUT:

Very,very few shooters can judge wind good enough-a 1mph error for a 10 mph wind-all the way out to 500,almost certainly not constant-would be very good indeed....and that means a 10% error which is 3.5 inches-so a miss from that error alone,let alone all the other imperfections in rifle /ammo/shooter-the poi plot is considerably larger than "just" the half moa at 100 x 5 (though thats another-note another-2.5 inches...so some shots will be (3.5+ 2.5 ) ie 6 inches off,not all of them but some.....that should be a reality check-and remember,this is for very good shooters,with a vey secure rest etc.....

gbal

ps have a look at the Diggle fly shoot results-many top shooters with top equipment-see how many grouped 3 inches ........results were posted on here maybe 3 weeks ago......and grouping three inches isn't the same as three inches and on the gong!!

so shooting varmints at 500 yards cant be done with a 223?? am not so sure!! So what is the max distance you guys think is possible for shooting varmints. foxes,rabbits,crows etc???

[MrCetrizine]

The maximum distance you can shoot them and the maximum distance you should shoot them to guarantee an instance humane kill are two very different things.

[sean223]

The maximum distance you can shoot them and the maximum distance you should shoot them to guarantee an instance humane kill are two very different things.

 

Well give us your thoughts on both distances... i thought a 75gr bthp would kill crows or rabbits instantly at 500 yards!

[MrCetrizine]

I don't shoot animals except game with a shotgun so I have little idea about the size of the effective kill zone on given animals.

However, I'd imagine hitting a rabbit in its hind legs, even with a .223 would cause it unacceptable suffering. Given that the distance between heart and legs would be roughly 3 inches then I wouldn't attempt a shot beyond 250m and feel happy about it.

 

Everyone has different feelings about it as well as different skill sets, these are just mine.

[gbal]

MrC,you are about right,and for the right reasons.

Sean-ou seem to be fairly new to shooting,and while a better scope may help you see better,it really does not change ballistics.Several members have made sensible,experience based points-I've given you some ballistic non escapables.

YOu may/not have heard of Bryan Litz,but he is chief balistics man at Berger bullets,and a top long range shooter.You should read his short article on the effective range (ie all shots in a 4" circle) with a 1/2 or better moa rifle (243 eg)-it is 248 yards...that's two hundred and forty eight yards.

 

Beyond that,there is increasing chance of the bullet fired being outside the 'hit zone'-and some definitely will,and you have no control which-it might be the first,third,fifth,etc but it happens.That for many is on the limit of acceptable.

Can a 223 bullet hit a rabbit at 500y ...yes

Can it be done every shot...no

Will all hits be humane kills...no

 

 

As I suggested,look at the results from Diggle shoots-the fly shoot is 3x5 shots at 500y-very few groups are sub 3",and a lot are much larger...the shooters do vary,but include absolutely top shots with superb equipment....and of course,the small groups would need to hit the rabbit,not just be a group somewhere....

same story from the Diggle prairie dog shoot-similar top shots-yes,many head hits at 100,some body hits at 300,and at least as many clear misses as hits anywhere at 500. And all this with sighters,and exactly known range.

Sighters change target shooting-when you see where your first shots missed,you can adjust-but field shooters can't usually-and absolutely can't repair a wounded animal.

Do please make sure your learning curve is not on live targets,meanwhile-have a hard look at the facts,starting with eg the above competition results.Reality check,big time.We all start somewhere,the real issue is,do we move in the right direction....enjoy,but responsibly.

 

gbal

 

ps I mention Diggle shoots because they have a range of shooters,including the best with top gear,and the results are generally on this site,in enough detail to get the true picture.Samples are substantial and results honest and public.It's also enjoyment oriented,as well as serious shooting,and as good a test bed for your ambitions,and yardstick for your achievement, as you are likely to get arranged for you.

Walk the walk,once you have your rifle sorted.

[sean223]

ill have to keep yous posted on my findings with the new rifle, sounds like a challenge for me. not saying yous are wrong but i think it is doable with alot of practice and the wright gear and info. people still miss at closer ranges or of an inch or two its going to happen now and then when your rifle shooting. Thanks for your thoughts and experience guys. would you guys be target shooters only by any chance...

[MrCetrizine]

I currently only shoot targets with my rifles but only because I've been shooting for less than 2 years and don't think I have the experience to humanely take live quarry.

Once I've gained some more wind reading experience, I have permissions waiting with local farmers for fox and a place on a friend's stalking land in Scotland once I've done my DSC1.

[gbal]

ill have to keep yous posted on my findings with the new rifle, sounds like a challenge for me. not saying yous are wrong but i think it is doable with alot of practice and the wright gear and info. people still miss at closer ranges or of an inch or two its going to happen now and then when your rifle shooting. Thanks for your thoughts and experience guys. would you guys be target shooters only by any chance...

Sean,the ballistics are the same for any target,live or inanimate.The ethics change when shooting live.What makes you think top target shooters (though many are field shooters too) have not practiced? A lot. We're talking 25 shots in less than .25 inch-not three,twenty five...or 5 in fewer inches at 1000y etc. Given the extra uncertainties of field shooting,it can hardly be easier....so look at the actual shooting data....

 

I have shot fac for over 50 years,but was not a target shooter for the first thirty years. In general,target oriented gear is considerably more accurate than sporting gear...but that is not really the point- an ambition to shoot rabbits at 250 y is well achievable,but not 100% in all conditions (and you yourself concede some misses). Above 90% first shot humane hits at 500y,in normal UK conditions,is unrealistic-that's what any honest shooter,or the competition data tell you,if you would look at it. For many that % would be a whole lot lower,and I mean lower than 50%....most I hope would consider that is not accepable,whatsoever(as football pundits put it).

Get some real shooting done,let us know just how you do- every time I see someone pleased with one small group, or a one off hit,it just raised the real question-if you and your gear are that good,why don't you do it (almost) every time-or face the real conclusion,most of the time you are simply not that good (it's a fluke,as any pundit would put it.) Or VInce's indisputable insight-"sometimes the wind blows them into the group". Misses are the better truth for field shooting.

atb

G

[sean223]

I've been shooting for years. started of with a shot gun then went for a .17 rifle about 5 years ago. what a super little bullet. shot foxes with it alot at night, id say max 120 yards. but for rabbits, crows etc you can go as far as 175 yards. bought a Howa 223 about 6/7 months ago and its going well shooting out to 375 yards on crows and rabbits and getting instant kills. so with a few changes like barrel twist for heavier bullets and scope etc, i could get another 100 yards at lest. time will tell...

[Biathlonjimmy]

Sean, the physics which, as gbal states, are inescapable. Do read the article by Mr Litz. Figure 2 of the article shows both graphically and numerically the chance of a first round hit, under field conditions, on a 6” target at 500y is 22%. Whilst we can type figures and statistics supporting the fact the first time hits in the field at 500y with varmint rifles are slim the overriding factor is that ethically that hit probability is indefensible. It is hard to defend because you cannot be sure that humane dispatch is achievable.

 

Go nuts at gongs and paper all day long at that range. Personally I’d want to be certain a first round hit on live quarry was achievable before pulling the trigger.

 

 

All the best,

 

 

J

[gbal]

I've been shooting for years. started of with a shot gun then went for a .17 rifle about 5 years ago. what a super little bullet. shot foxes with it alot at night, id say max 120 yards. but for rabbits, crows etc you can go as far as 175 yards. bought a Howa 223 about 6/7 months ago and its going well shooting out to 375 yards on crows and rabbits and getting instant kills. so with a few changes like barrel twist for heavier bullets and scope etc, i could get another 100 yards at lest. time will tell...

Sean,this is getting repetitive....the issue is NOT has a 223 enough energy to kill a crow at 375 yards-of course it has.But rifles soon reach a range where their precision precludes 90% hits on small targets under normal conditons. Many rifles are 200 yards capable,some 22 cfs will go 250-300.Then the % just has to drop.You do not say what your hit/miss ratio is/was-the central point is that it will drop below what is acceptable to most decent shooters,for whom a wounded target is unacceptable.

I don't know what will convince you-perhaps the grim statistics for gunshot combat casualties-there are about 3 times as many wounding as fatal hits.Let's not dwell on that. Critics of the 30/30 carbine have conceded that it has killed more deer than most other cartridges,but also wounded more ......so a great deer shooting rifle...?

Some shooters have hit a clay pigeon at 1000y....can they do it on demand,well I know one that can't.

I don't know what your '17' was,but the lesser 17s have all attracted some comment-they can fail on fox,more often than is acceptable,when pushed too far,...and the 22rf is plain marginal almost always....though it can kill.....

You need to take on board that improved performance in rifles is not linear-you can't get better and better,longer and longer beyond what the cartridge can do,at the same rate as 250-300y......simples,athletes call it the cliff/wall....beyond which....

I hope you have lots of success on gongs etc,but realise from your misses,that live targets deserve better.

gbal

[sean223]

appreciate that. Thanks.. ill try the steel first.

[gbal]

appreciate that. Thanks.. ill try the steel first.

Ding, dong....music to the ears!

 

G