CSR barrels - the winners' specs

[brown dog]

Wondering what the barrel specs were on rifles recently posted in the winners' pics:

 

Profile / weight

length

chamber

twist

 

etc?

[bradders]

Three were Armalon 18" med weight, 1:200mm, (1:7.787")chambered .223 AR Match

One was a Border Archer 20" (I think) 1:8, chambered .223 AR Match

One was a Wilson (I think) 20: 1:7, chambered in .223 Wylde

One was a 20" Archer or Blackstar 1:8, chambered in .223 Rem if I remember correctly

 

None of it really makes any difference

[John MH]

CSR Individual Service Optic National Champion is shooting a Krieger with approx 7000 rounds through it. He won using Mil Surp Ball ammo.

[bradders]

CSR Individual Service Optic National Champion is shooting a Krieger with approx 7000 rounds through it. He won using Mil Surp Ball ammo.

True,

He also had 2 unexplained missed on the final 500-300 rundown, so maybe it's on its way.

That said, think how he'd be with a new fresh barrel

[John MH]

The misses on the rundown were self induced, sat in the wrong lane at 400 then had to move and had two very rushed shots.

[Laurie]

CSR Individual Service Optic National Champion is shooting a Krieger with approx 7000 rounds through it. He won using Mil Surp Ball ammo.

 

 

That's a pretty impressive life for a rapid-fire, high round count per comp stage, run-barrels-hot combination. If the Mil Surp is SS109 type, it's not exactly low pressure either!

[bradders]

 

 

That's a pretty impressive life for a rapid-fire, high round count per comp stage, run-barrels-hot combination. If the Mil Surp is SS109 type, it's not exactly low pressure either!

I usually throw mine away at 5-6000.

By the time they get to 6, they're usually past their best, and more importantly don't owe me anything at that point.

Our game is more focused on shooting ability than ultimate accuracy of your rifle.

 

What good is a sub MOA rifle if you can't hold better than 3-4 MOA?, and if you can shoot 2 MOA all day long, you'll be the cock of the walk!

 

I rebarrelled one the other day that I built in 2007. It's estimated it's had between 12-14000 rds down it.

The first 5" of rifling are gone, and in the last practise of the Methuen last week at 300, it shot a 9-1 (49ex50)

 

 

Bill Wylde said once that he considers a barrel (any barrel) done when it's had 20lbs of powder down it.

Seems about right to me, as with .223 that's around 5600rds.

 

My Pal John Chubb (2x Presidents 100 winner) states he'd never go into a big match with a barrel with more than 1200rds on it (again .223)

[Laurie]

Thanks for that information Mark. Your 2007 build with 12,000-14,000 through it and 5-inches of new 'freeebore' reminded me of a one-careful-owner Mauser action Schultz & Larsen 7.62mm TR rifle I bought ages back when it was 20-25 years old. The previous owner didn't know the round count but shot 22 rounds nearly every Sunday from April through October each year plus a number of longer competitions annually, all with milspec 7.62 'Black-Spot' and 'Green Spot' which must have amounted to around the same round count as your customer's 223 barrel, maybe even more.

 

Such was the freebore I used the longest / heaviest bullet I could get at the time locally and a powder charge that was 4gn above the manufacturer's max load with no pressure problems and had maybe 500 or 600 fairly accurate shots from it until one sunny day when it said 'Enough' and died on me between shots. It would hardly hold the old 1988 NRA target 'black' at 300 yards after that. I would have loved to look inside it, but nobody had borescopes back then.

[baldie]

Pete Russels barrel [ highest individual score in Methuen ] was fitted by me and its a Border Archer.

 

I came fifth overall in service with two silvers and a gold and mine is an Archer.

 

Most of the top scorers at Diggle are using border archers [fitted by me ]

 

I agree with Mark though, I dont think it makes that much difference. I,ve just got some Armalon blanks and these will be just as good for what we use them for.

[John MH]

Priority improvements for a competitive CSR Rifle to shoot well:

 

1. A decent trigger.

 

2. Freefloat the barrel.

 

3. A decent adjustable and repeatable optic.

 

4. A decent barrel, however as already pointed outr, most barrels will outshoot the ability of the shooter in this game.

[brown dog]

I get that a limiter in csr shooting is the shooter them self; but there's an aggregation of small benefits thing here 3moa shooter with 2moa rifle vs 3moa shooter with 0.5 moa rifle.

and I don't think there's a heap of price difference (especially in the long view) over fitting a cheap blank vs a better one - strikes me as saving money in the wrong place?

 

Surprised that most are on normal chambers - thought Wylde would dominate.

 

Do most blanks in use have a genuine AR profile or are bog std profiles being fitted (eg I think Lothar do AR profiles - could be wrong though!)

 

Aggregation of small benefits seems to guide my thinking though - what is the price difference between,say, an armalon blank and a lothar or archer?

[Ronin]

Lothar blank is circa 260 into the country

 

Armalon, a little cheaper (from the price list I've seen) and I've heard some good reports of accuracy, I intend to try a few on stalking rifle builds anyway.

 

Archer …….you can't get Archer blanks any more, Borders new owners are not corresponding with people with pre existing orders.

 

 

Not tried any CSR, but this thread certainly whets the appetite

[bradders]

Armalons are hammer forged, Walthers use some "special" steel.

Archers are 416 or the UK equivalent.

 

I mostly use an SPR profile for mine, 1" dia at chamber, .850" under the handguard, .750" where the front sight would be, then .740"from there to the muzzle.

 

It's still a heavy barrel compared to a Govt profile, but not as heavy as a Hbar or bull barrel, and light enough to carry all day.

 

I have a Wylde reamer, but have never felt the need to use it.

Recently though I went from a std .223 Rem to .223 AR Match, which is a more modern chamber than the Wylde

 

All the barrels shoot the same

[John MH]

Main difference amongst most of the above is the Armalon is a 'Hammer Forged' barrel.

 

CSR rifles get quite a bit of abuse, they get wet as it rains a lot, they get muddy because its often muddy, they are subject to reasonably rapid fire (a barrel killer), if they are lucky they get cleaned regularly. They are not bench rest or super precision rifles. Nice and tight and super accurate means a jam or stiff extraction that will cost you at least 4 points at some point; a loose 4 is better than 0.

 

All that said, as shooting is 95% mental attitude if you think its better and want it you need to get it as the doubt will linger.

 

One other point worth noting, super tight groups in the centre of the target can sometimes result in 'Nine-Wash' or even worse 'Eight-Wash' as the marker struggles to distinguish double holes; that is ultimately bad marking but it happens so be aware.

[bradders]

Another reason to shoot CSR is because you you could own and shoot something like this

 

[dannywayoflife]

Oh baby!!! How am I ever supposed to swell my bank balance with gun porn like that being posted on here!? Lol

[baldie]

My favoured profile is 4" of parallel at the breech of 1" dia then a 45 degree radius down to a 16" length of .750 dia. This gives enough rigidity for high shot strings [no walk ] but isn't too heavy for a CSR gun. This dia takes Mark's brake nicely and looks right.

 

I chamber exclusively in .223 wylde, although I 've just got an AR match reamer, but haven't tried it yet.

 

Walther's are 420 stainless. It has a lower sulphur content than 416 which is why it's slightly harder to machine.

[Offroad Gary]

How much does a half decent s/h one of these go for?

[gbal]

I can see that CSR (and US across the course') shooting is perhaps the most demanding way to shoot with a cf rifle accurately.Still,is in not the case that a barrel that is say one moa more accurate (in grouping) is likely on average to shoot one moa better used by the same shooter,than a barrrel one moa less accurate? As the scoring rings seem to be one moa increasing,that would mean a considerable increase in score,would it not,when using a more accurate barrel.

It may be that all barrels used are in fact about the same-though that seems unlikely,but they need not be,surely?Is not the score an additive function of the shooter's ability and the rifle's intrinsic precision;In this demanding discipline,it is quite likely that the shooter variability will contribute more,but the barrel/rifle must contribute too,to an extent that changes scores,one point per shot for each moa difference,averaged out.

(I am somewhat guided by the 300 y 'score shooting' advantages given by the 30BR,where it's small caliber increase over 243 (6mm) clipped enough more score rings for it to dominate-given otherwise exact precision/skill.....and that the Tubb 2000 enabled Tubb to improve his scores,at least partly due to a superior barrel...cumulative,yes...can neglect,no.

[Laurie]

Glen Zediker's book, The Competitive AR15, probably the most comprehesive look at US XTC shooting kit and practices, lists a small number of near standard load combinations for the three key bullet weights (69, 77, and 80), has a lot on handloading practices, but says only play with load development until you get reliable sub one-MOA results and they don't blow primers on hot days. After that, it's trigger time, trigger time, and more trigger time in the three positions and practice perfecting quick mag changes etc. 100% in accordance with Mark's views expressed earlier, and I can well believe it. (In my case it would be a case of working up improvements from a very low base especially in the kneeling / standing departments!)

 

http://www.zediker.com/books/ar15/ar15main.html

[gbal]

Laurie,yes agreed-the key point is 'get a sub moa load'- that was my point,perhaps not clearly expressed -one moa is probably approaching,perhaps exceeding,the likely precision of many CSR rifles.As with deer rifles,endless pursuit of an elusive reduction in group size of .1 moa is not going to reflected in success in the field. That is not so of Bench Rest,and other very high precision disciplines,where success can be in thousands of an inch).

Given the sub moa rifle (close to its limit) then of course the shooter skill becomes the larger factor,holding 2moa is pretty good-and crucially,this skill actually be improved by good practice (whereas expenditure on equipment has its limits).

I may have misunderstood the point that barrels are all similar-it could be read that all the mentioned barrels are similar.Fine-but it would be worth a small premium (as BD suggests) to try to get a better one-so you get to sub moa relatively easily.

I do agree on the practice/difficulty of the discipline-though it's not something I've done before,I now am enjoying the challenge of unsupported non prone shooting-clearly not up with those Omani aces yet,despite using an Aug,but relieved to think (kid myself) that the non falling fig 11s were due to a lingering BR habit of putting shots through the same hole (kidding,John-but every straw may help,in the mental game).

As in many scenarios,technical improvement tends to become asymptotic,and effort is better expended on the weakest link-the nut behind the but.

(Mark-the Tubb of course isn't a CSR,though it would seem to be the best tool to display one's skills-or expose their lack!)

[bradders]

George,

Sorry I don't mean to offend, but I have an eye problem which makes following and reading your posts very difficult.

The odd sentence break here and there, and perhaps a new paragraph every once in a while would help me immensly.

 

As for the Tubb, well you'll be competing against other rifles in Practical class.

You could up the trigger weight and wind the scope down to 4.5 and then shoot in Service, but as you can't use a bipod, your mags are going to be a bit short for resting on.

Likewise you could shoot off your elbows, but you will be disadvantaged.

 

That said, shooting a 6mm wunder cartridge in Service class really isn't in the spirit of it all and we will frown upon it

There is one guy, a very well known gallery rifle shooter, who also shoots Highpower in our club with his T2k.

He's tried CSR but his performances were less than exciting.

Couple that to the fact that he can barely manage 200yds without turning blue and as he admitted, it isn't for him

 

XTC and CSR have some similarities, but it's a totally different game.

No leather coats or mats for us

[gbal]

Thanks,Mark,for the various advice.

 

I'll try to keep to one line bites (nibbles?) sometimes.

 

But I do drift into joined up sentences.Hopefully thoughts.Try to cover complexity.Perhaps fail.

 

Of course disciplines vary,and rightly so-it is really helpful to have your inside line,though,as web sites can't cover the nitty gritty (which is subjective). Worse though is limited info-like target size!

 

I note too the physical demands-I'd be a little concerned about some old stager staggering up behind me with a loaded rifle,as on one youtube video...As I might be that old stager,I'm not sure I could take the ignominy of not being in the lead any more.

 

Anyhow,I clearly need more practice,meanwhile,with a 4.5x scope ...I must have such a device,somewhere....:-)

 

Otherwise it's some sort of geriatric PSG... if I can get the biscuit tin sizes..!

G

[David TS]

Another reason to shoot CSR is because you you could own and shoot something like this

 

 

 

Or this

 

I'd still be last though