Advice needed rifle wise

[Mash67]

A little advice please if you have time

Firstly I’ll state that I’m happy with ‘remmy actions’, have three with no problems and always have good accuracy

Also I’m left handed and don’t shoot RH rifles

So I have a remmy short action that I wanted to re barrel in 243

I also have a sako long action L691, in 25-06 that I was getting rid of

But I want a 7mm, not necessarily a magnum, for longer ranges, 1000 plus

Do I re barrel the sako to 280 rem or the ‘remmy’ to 7 08 rem

Can the sako be put into any of the AICS stable of stock’s.

Or get a long action Remington action and re barrel in 280 and move on the sako. This I would think would be the most expensive direction

The rifle will need a new stock as the options I have are not very good

 

Also any negatives towards my choice of calibre, from people who have used them, not armchair ballistic experts, I’ve done that myself

Thanks in advance

Matt

 

 

 

[baldie]

Rebarrel the remmy in 7-08 Matt.

It will also go in an AICS. The sako won't.

[The Gun Pimp]

But how's a 7 - 08 going to be any use for 1000 yds. Unless you have it ridiculously long-throated, powder capacity will be compromised by deep-seating the longer bullet and I doubt you'll match the ballistics of a 308 - now that the FTR guys have really developed the 308.

[jcampbellsmith]

Matt

 

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase.html under the cartridge research tab has an option to select the 7mms Nathan has reviewed. I'm quite keen on getting a 280 Ackley Improved myself but I need to free up some space first.

 

Regards

 

JCS

[gbal]

Matt,Trying to avoid specific cartridges,whether from the armchair or the firing point,if you want to be putting shots consistently near the bull at 1000y,rather than miscellaneously on the paper,you need:

 

7mm 175g BC .596 2800 fps Any wavering in one will need compensation in the others.

 

Otherwise,you are relatively handicapped,and the good 6.5s will beat you (142g/.565/2950) for parity,and with less recoil.308 with lots of recoil (or serious weight-think 23 lb) can manage a respectable performance.

Sorry,that is god/newton,armchair or not-best select field cartridges that perform in the ball park.There are quite a few options,that are Rem-or Sako-friendly...

Gbal

[baldie]

I would have thought the 7-08 would be fine at 1000 yards. I,ve built them for people before that have used them at that range and been fine. Admittedly not a 1000 yards cartridge, but I will bet you dont want it solely for 1000 yards do you Matt ? Will it see some mag fed action as another csr gun at all ?

 

If you do, then there are better 7mm choices. The first I would point to in a std l/a rem would be a .284 win.

[20series]

I would have thought the 7-08 would be fine at 1000 yards. I,ve built them for people before that have used them at that range and been fine. Admittedly not a 1000 yards cartridge, but I will bet you dont want it solely for 1000 yards do you Matt ? Will it see some mag fed action as another csr gun at all ?

 

If you do, then there are better 7mm choices. The first I would point to in a std l/a rem would be a .284 win.

 

+1 for a 284, my balistics run at

180gn Bergber hybrid, 55 gns 4831sc giving 2870fps, stay supersonic out to 1500 yards and its a pleasure to shoot.

[20series]

I would have thought the 7-08 would be fine at 1000 yards. I,ve built them for people before that have used them at that range and been fine. Admittedly not a 1000 yards cartridge, but I will bet you dont want it solely for 1000 yards do you Matt ? Will it see some mag fed action as another csr gun at all ?

 

If you do, then there are better 7mm choices. The first I would point to in a std l/a rem would be a .284 win.

 

 

+1 for a 284, my balistics run at

180gn Bergber hybrid, 55 gns 4831sc giving 2870fps, stay supersonic out to 1500 yards and its a pleasure to shoot.

[gbal]

+1 on the 284w as an easy option-though there is no reason that your balllistically slightly better(?) 280 Rem should not be OK-esp as JCB says,in AI chambering.Its just not been much developed (nor has the 7RemMag).The 284 has done well with fclass,though the existence of the Shehane suggests that it lacks just a little for comfort (aka wind!)

Dave's point is relevant-we get this sort of discussion over and over,largely because members want a dual purpose rifle (stalk,some Long range)-an inevitable compromise,esp for the Long range;or there isn't any specification of what would be satisfactory performance at 1000y-once that is included,it's a different ball game-say 1moa,in reasonable conditions ( up to 10 mph wind,eg).But reasonably competitive...thats going to halve the precision,and it's needs to be consistent(hence a custom 6.5x284 as setting the standard,but by no means current cutting edge....)

If you are happy with a full choke shotgun pattern (75% of the holes in a 30 inch circle),then lots of more

modest cartridges/rifles come into play ( and I mean play-fun only) at 1000y.We hear of very long range hits on gongs etc...fine...I won't say it didn't happen every shot,because I wasn't there when it didn't,but walking shots in is a different criterion( as is some hits,and some misses),compared even to a sighter first-the competition sighter will be well on target,allowing fine tuning for conditons,with consistent precision (1moa).

Which option is for you,is entirely subjective- 75% bang and clang sounds fun to me; four in 5 inches,and one (blown) out five more,can be frustrating,but very satisfying when it blows into the other four,and if you do it consistently,it's your skill/equipment that's takes the credit.

 

An 8 lb 7-08 is an excellent deer rig,a 20lb Shehane isn't.And vice versa for 1000y.So maybe you need two rifles,as you indeed have.....

atb,whatever way you go

Gbal

[Mash67]

the rifle will be for long range play really, something to use on gongs etc when available at 1000 and beyond, this is not for competition but I did want to keep the bullet supersonic to 1500yrd or so, round count will be low but also I don't want a barrel burner so am happy with mid placed velocities,

I was thinking of 162g at around 2700-2900, my searching has shown it could be possible with the 708 but more so with 280 and above,

I don't want to go 'magnum' if I don't need to.

I was nearly sold on the 708 but had a long action so thought the 280 might be a goer. but if it wont fit my choice of stocks I will move on to another action.

I have been going round for months trying to decide, make a choice and then some info puts me off

originally I was thinking 7mm rem mag but if I want to go ELR then other rounds may be better.

[Laurie]

Dave's point is relevant-we get this sort of discussion over and over,largely because members want a dual purpose rifle (stalk,some Long range)-an inevitable compromise,esp for the Long range;or there isn't any specification of what would be satisfactory performance at 1000y-once that is included,it's a different ball game-say 1moa,in reasonable conditions ( up to 10 mph wind,eg).But reasonably competitive...thats going to halve the precision,and it's needs to be consistent(hence a custom 6.5x284 as setting the standard,but by no means current cutting edge....)

Gbal

 

 

George and Vince (Gun Pimp) have got to the centre of this dilemma, one that keeps cropping up on this and other forums - the problems of the dual or multi-role short-action rifle and cartridge combination. Especially when as now, people want the target bit to work well at 1,000 yards. Like George, I'll stress the 'work well' bit as it's one thing to hit an F-Class centre, even more so the standard NRA TR / Match Rifle target with its larger rings, but it's a very different matter to have a satisfying experience at this distance in competition against others once the novelty wears off.

 

The problem is of course in getting the necessary ballistics inside the constraints of a COAL that fits a magazine originally designed for 7.62/308. There are other issues too such as ending up with something that's too big and heavy and clumsy to be a nice stalking piece, while at the same time being too short and lightweight for an effective LR target gun. It's no coincidence that sniper kit specifications and marksmanship training is geared to an 800 metre maximum effective range for the 7.62 as it's the last 100 and a bit yards that really kills the 308 unless it's loaded as a specialist round that would likely amaze its original 1950s era designers and fired in a rifle that is as equally if not more specialised to do one job, and one job only. Yes, everybody wants a Remmy PSS / Sako TRG type rifle that is competitive on the ranges at over 800 yards, but nobody's come up with one yet (apart from those clowns at the British Shooting Show last year who claimed a one-inch group or whatever it was at 1,000 from their short-barrel 308 tactical rifle).

 

One option is to find something that was designed for the police or military marksman in years of yore with a set-up for magazine operation with the .300 Win Mag. That gives you the action and magazine length to happily take 280 Rem, or 284 Win with the bullet seated out where it needs to be at a COAL at 3.200 inches or more. The P-H M85 was one such and Remy built 700s for the US military, but they must be like hen's teeth. The alternative is to build a custom rifle on the same lines if you can find the bottom metal and magazines. If you do find such a design, it needs to be in a non-magnum chambering that provides a bolt-face and extractor that suits a non-magnum cartridge. (Most P-H M85s you find were sold in .243 Win to British police forces, but retain the long Mauser action and 300WM length detachable 5 and 10 round magazines.)

 

Sticking to the short-action Remy, the problem you cannot avoid is the 2.800 to 2.900" COAL and what that does to the bullet position in the case alongside the amount of powder that a case of around two-inches long can hold. 7mm-08 is a great little cartridge and a fine match number, but at 2.8-2.9" COAL it's really limited in the bullet weight (ie length) department. With a bit of creative throating in the build you might get away with a set-up that shoots lighter bullets well at magazine COALs with a bit (lot?) of jump while handling heavier match bullets at ~2.950 to 3.000 inch COAL single-loaded. The 162gn A-Max, popular with many 7mm mid range and even LR .284 Win shooting club competitors can be given MVs in the high 2,700s with the highest energy ball or high-energy stick powders (Ramshot Hunter, Reloder 17) from a 26-inch barrel so set up, but most powders are going to produce velocities down in the 2,720 - 2,750 fps area. The AI doesn't give that much more, just makes it easier to achieve or break through the 2,750 fps mark without killing the rifle (and maybe yourself).

 

If you can get that level of ballistics and if the barrel likes the 162, and if you can get hold of any of these bullets (Hornady has only just put them back into production after 18 months or so 'temporary suspension' and it'll undoubtedly take months for any to get here, and there are LOTS of people in the queue even before any arrive) - a lot of IFs - this makes a workable solution. The LR ballistics will beat the small 6.5s with the 123gn Scenar, and challenge these cartridges when set up for and pushed hard with 140gn bullets. Even at 2,700 fps MV with Hornady 162s, the 7mm-08 doesn't look at all shabby.

 

However, there are no small number of 284s now being fielded as out and out LR match rifles even in club matches these days. They allow a higher BC 180gn bullet at 100-200 fps more than you could hope for with the 162. The difference is such that the 284 user has an advantage even at shorter ranges in anything other than very calm conditions, but a substantial one at 900 and 1,000 in any condition short of a flat calm. You could go down the 284 route with the 162 with the compromise chamber configuration again sticking to 2.800 for magazine operation and ~2.950 inches for single-loading match shooting ..... but will a Remy 700 and AI magazine combination feed with the fatter body .284 case shape?

 

Getting people to share real-life experiences with this cartridge in the dual role? That won't be easy. The 7-08 hasn't got a great following here except for the few who've recognised what a great dearstalking cartridge it makes in lightweight stalking rifles. They're not unknown on the ranges, but in multi-purpose rifles? 7-08 as a clubman's F/O cartridge is a project I'm going to work on next year when a 308 comes up for rebarrelling, but it'll be in a 20lb 30-inch barrel single-shot configuration.

[gbal]

the rifle will be for long range play really, something to use on gongs etc when available at 1000 and beyond, this is not for competition but I did want to keep the bullet supersonic to 1500yrd or so, round count will be low but also I don't want a barrel burner so am happy with mid placed velocities,

I was thinking of 162g at around 2700-2900, my searching has shown it could be possible with the 708 but more so with 280 and above,

I don't want to go 'magnum' if I don't need to.

I was nearly sold on the 708 but had a long action so thought the 280 might be a goer. but if it wont fit my choice of stocks I will move on to another action.

I have been going round for months trying to decide, make a choice and then some info puts me off

originally I was thinking 7mm rem mag but if I want to go ELR then other rounds may be better.

 

Mash,that's helpful-take out 'competitive' and emphasise 'fun' and it's easier.

But from my armchair,some of the suggestions seem unlikely...in general,i'd at least include BC,probably more critical than simple

weight (168s are notoriously poorer beyond 600y than 155s in 308,eg,with only a few exceptions-Bergers eg.)

Super sonic at 1500y is a big ask.....

7-08 even with 140g BC .489 Nosler BT,@ 2800 have dropped to 1289 fps at (only) 1000y....

280 160 BC .522 @ 2800 1356

7Rem mag 162 Amax .625 @2950 1423

 

Then you are into effectively magnum territory,but more hopeful:

7STW 160 BC .531 @ 3075 1542

140 .485 @ 3300 1569

 

Of course,these are becoming powder hungry barrel burners.....and less pleasant to shoot...no free lunch.

 

Any extra constraints of action and stock preferences/options won't help,but are ballistically neutral.

 

Sorry,I don't have velocities at 1500y to hand,but I think we can eliminate the smaller 7s,though good to go gongs at half that.

Actual accuracy/precision of course will be an individual rifle matter,but will matter at very long range.

I wonder if armchair golf is easier! :-) (apart from the 684y par 3 at Lytham St Andrews.)

 

Gbal

[Mash67]

thanks for the input gents

'armchair' is not a dig at people who know there stuff as you obviously do ,but more those that inainly comment whatever the subject, though i redily admit not man to be found here.

cheers guys,good food for thought

any more advice gladly taken

Matt

[gbal]

thanks for the input gents

'armchair' is not a dig at people who know there stuff as you obviously do ,but more those that inainly comment whatever the subject, though i redily admit not man to be found here.

cheers guys,good food for thought

any more advice gladly taken

Matt

Matt,understood and agreed-worth sorting out the 'theory'-hard to do in a sentence-but it keeps the anecdotal 'evidence' within 'minute of pinch of salt' .

 

I find the fabric covered armchairs more comfy,especially in cold weather.With appropriate clothing ,leather can have some appeal,but without ,such sofas def need a log fire in winter....but I digress...! :-)

 

Gbal

[Laurie]

Matt

 

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase.html under the cartridge research tab has an option to select the 7mms Nathan has reviewed. I'm quite keen on getting a 280 Ackley Improved myself but I need to free up some space first.

 

Regards

 

JCS

 

 

Both .280 rem and 280 AI are seeing increasing use in American F-Class and are doing well in the right rifles in the right hands at up to national level. They're seen as the poor man's alternative to the 7mm short magnums and some users are even getting allegedly good results with cheap Remington brass. (But at how much prep work you wonder?) You can understand this with the number of cheap Rem 700 long actions with standard bolt faces that are around in the US, some even match prepped if you have a lucky find. And in this case, Matt has his long Sako action already available. So, it'd come down to getting a suitable stock for this project, a subject I'm totally ignorant about!

 

The 280AI has taken off in the USA as both a match and hunting round too since Norma and Nosler started producing brass, so you don't need to fireform standard cases either. There are issues about chamber forms though as I understand that Nosler settled on one particular version and that a lot of older reamers on the go produce chambers that don't work with the factory brass. I had some email correspondence a couple of years ago with a 280AI enthusisast. He necks Lapua .30-06 cases down and fireforms them to get good quality and strong brass at a reasonable price. (Not a completely simple operation as the 280's shoulder is further forward than that on the .270 Win / .30-06 this put into the design to make it difficult, hopefully impossible, to chamber a 280 round in a 270 Win rifle. So a false shoulder has to be used, or a jammed bullet, when fireforming the .30-06 case.) The result is apparently a bit short - this guy got PT&G to make up a tight-neck 280AI reamer with a slightly short neck section to suit the brass.

 

the 280AI does almost everything the WSM does (they've near identical case capacity), although you can't load it as hot as the SAUM / WSM if you stick to the SAAMI Maximum pressure level of 58,750 psi v the short maggies' 65,000 psi. And in a long action of course. So it has the WSM's pluses and minuses - like great ballistics, potentially excellent precision, very good 7mm bullets available, but ..... noisy, heavy recoiling, short barrel life. Not one for me I've got to say, .284 Win with 180s is more than enough gun for me, but this forum is full of guys who not only get the WSMs to shoot well at up to 1,200 yards but tell me they actually enjoy shooting them.

[gbal]

Laurie, 'enjoy shooting wsm etc'? Well,they are probably suffering from youth,or cognitive dissonance,or both. :-)

Time may tell!

Gbal

[Mash67]

gents

am I reading that the 280 would be an good bet then for my needs without going magnum

it wouldn't give much away to the 284 and be a good length to feed in a long action

[Laurie]

gents

am I reading that the 280 would be an good bet then

was thinking the brass may be easier to get

 

 

Yes, I'd say a very good bet. If you believe in short, fat cases being inherently superior, you'd not give .280 Rem the time of day, but it works. The American brass will likely be fairly soft, but it's relatively cheap, so it's not like throwing fully prepped Norma or Lapua brass away after three or four firings. Check with Hannams to see if they have it in stock under the Relcom name (actually Remington at a lower price).

[jcampbellsmith]

gents

am I reading that the 280 would be an good bet then for my needs without going magnum

it wouldn't give much away to the 284 and be a good length to feed in a long action

 

One of the factors that has influenced my interest in 280 Rem/280 AI is the ability to purchase factory ammunition, it's also possible to purchase factory ammunition in 7 x 64. I don't see much in the way of 284 Win factory ammunition apart from Winchester. Space in my gun cupboard permitting I'm keen to purchase something that will allow me on occasion to shoot 7mm factory copper ammunition.

 

Regards

 

JCS

[gbal]

One of the factors that has influenced my interest in 280 Rem/280 AI is the ability to purchase factory ammunition, it's also possible to purchase factory ammunition in 7 x 64. I don't see much in the way of 284 Win factory ammunition apart from Winchester. Space in my gun cupboard permitting I'm keen to purchase something that will allow me on occasion to shoot 7mm factory copper ammunition.

 

Regards

 

JCS

Yes,284w was introduced for the Win 88 lever action (and model 100 semi) in 1963-'everyone' wanted a lever action with 270 power,except when Winchester offered it ,they didn't.So 284,a fine cartridge,languished-later a few commercial lever rifles chambered it (Savage 99,Browning BLR),but it had to compete with said 270,well established in bolt format,and the equally good/better 280 Rem. No chance.Discontinued.

So there isn't much of a market for commercial 280 cartridges,so little choice,though the 88/284 is a fine rifle combination,with no action strength compromises.

Wildcat bench resters/F class picked it up as it seemed well suited to their needs.But they are a small market,and would not be very likely to want commercially loaded ammo.So there isn't much choice,but loadings will be deer hunting oriented.

Gbal

[Laurie]

The other factor too with .284 Win in factory loaded form was (and still is) the 2.800" COAL as Winchester was desperate to capitalise on the average American deerhunter's love affair with short actions back in the '60s. This decision effectively limited the bullets that can be used in a standard 284 to 140gn, at best 150, not through their weights but rather how much bullet ended up seated inside the case.

 

Couple it to an unattractive pair of rifles (although the Winchester 88 levergun now has a cult following and is very collectable!) as George says and the cartridge was a flop commercially, but loved by wildcatters, so Winchester continued to manufacture occasional batches of brass for this market, I'd guess the 6-284 'wildcat' the most likely use back then before Americans discovered the ballistic benefits of 6.5mm bullets.

 

US LR target shooters + Norma giving us a wildcat 6.5-284 followed by the Norma sponsored CIP registered 'industry version' is of course what has brought the case and finally improved versions of the original 7mm finally into prominence, but it wasn't only target shooters. While the target shooting wildcatters were necking their Winchester 284 brass down to 6.5mm, keen US deerstalkers had rediscovered the 284 Win, but now used in custom deer rfiles built on long actions and with barrels throated to take 175gn bullets. It was unofficially known as the .284 Win LT (for 'Long Throat') and I read several articles in American shooting magazines about this version and loads for it maybe 10 or 15 years ago. Ironically, it was Norma's adoption of the 6.5 that spurred this trend on as its biggest problem had been getting brass, Winchester having more or less stoppped production by now. New Norma 6.5-284 cases might not have been the answer to the maiden's prayer, but they certainly were for long-range 7mm deerhunting aficionados.

 

However, unlike Norma and the 6.5mm version, nobody in the US shooting industry has 'modernised' the 284 and reregistered it in a proper long form at around 3.25-3.3" COAL. So, no factory ammo that is much use to man or beast.

 

As an aside, the subject of necking the 284 up to 0.30" arises on forums occasionally, and on the face of it seems a good option. The standard 'killer' of a reply is: "Why bother? Create a .30-284 with all the costs of a special chamber reamer and dies, and you reinvent the 100 year old Swiss 7.5X55mm GP11." And, it's true, the differences between the old 7.5mm (actually a .30 calibre) and 30-284 wildcat aren't worth spit!