mil/mil ffp scope

[banus02]

good evening laddies and gents,please bear with me ,I have purchased a ffp mil/mil scope but have only ever used hunting scopes and have never adusted other than first zero,30 years no problem.i am about to try long range and do not know how to use my new scope ,looking for info on adjustment from 100yard zero out to 500yards in 50 yard increments,rifle is a cz527 varmint using 53/55gr 24inch,1in9 twist.223rem.mv3000fps,thank you in advance

[Shuggy]

You need a ballistics program - you can program this with your data and it will produce a table with all your 'come ups' in mils. There are plenty free on line, or if you have an iPod or smartphone there are some very good apps such as Ballistic AE.

[MJR]

You will also be able to use the reticle for elevation/windage hold off should you need to at any magnification as the reticle stays 'true' across the magnification range.

[banus02]

THANK YOU FOR THE REPLIES LADS,MUST BE A BIT DENCE THIS END AS I STILL DONT UNDERSTAND IF ZEROED AT 100 YARDS IF I SHOOT AT 200 DO I COME UP ONE MILL ,TWO MILL300 ETC

[Shuggy]

Try here - plug in all your data and it will tell you.

 

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi

[tackb]

The easiest way is to shoot with someone who knows

[Scotch_egg]

Well done shuggy I was just about to post the link myself.

 

The data you put in needs to be correct. So use a chronograph to get your exact muzzle velocity.

[forbie]

What scope did you buy. The information with it should help you.

You need to know your scope clicks.

1 mil is 3.6 inches at 100 yards. So (most mil scopes) have 0.1mil clicks you move 0.36" at a 100 yards with 1 click

SO FROM ZERO YARDS (FIRING POINT)

at 100 yards 1 click is 0.36 inches ON the Traget

at 200 yards 1 click is 0.72 inches "

at 300 yards 1 click is 1.08 inches "

at 400 yards 1 click is 1.44 inches "

at 500 yards 1 click is 1.8 inches "

at 600 yards 1 click is 2.16 inches "

You need a ballistic calculator, scope height from centre of the barrel, muzzle velocity and Ballistic Coeficient of your bullet to tell you the approximate speeds of your bullet at these ranges. The claculator will produce a drop chart showing you the clicks you need to come up at these distances. This will get you on target and will need actual shooting at these distances to be 100% on.

Forgot to mention it will also produce windage clicks as well

[Shuggy]

Personally I don't find 'inches on the target' to be a very helpful way to think. It took me years to realise that it's much more helpful to think in terms of MOA or Mils. It's even better when your adjustments match the markings in your reticle. FFP scopes are the easiest of them all, because the turrets and the reticle will match at all magnifications.

[forbie]

The OP has been shooting for 30 years (old school). I will bet that he thinks in inches thats why I used inches.

A basic example for him to relate to straight away. if he wants to think in mils then he can.

Metric is far easier than MOA anyway.

[Shuggy]

Well I was the same. I spent years thinking in inches from MOA and then converted to Mils. I agree that mils are much easier to work with.

 

I am sure that Brown Dog will be along to disagree, but mils have nothing to do with the metric system! Radians were first conceived by a Brit in 1714, whereas the metric system was a French Johnny-come-lately from 1799.

[brown dog]

I am sure that Brown Dog will be along to disagree, but mils have nothing to do with the metric system! Radians were first conceived by a Brit in 1714, whereas the metric system was a French Johnny-come-lately from 1799.

 

Immediately -depends whether you're using 6000, 6200, 6283 or 6400 mils in your circle.......if you're using 6400 - and NATO does, you're using a system designed to work with metric maps and not your 1714 jobbie with the same mname. If you're using 6283 ...well no one involved in the professional application of fire does; so it's just you ...so your NATO 0.1milrad is actually two hundreths of a cm less than you think at 100m - but that's close enough for government work

[brown dog]

PS - to the OP. That has nothing to do with the use of mils in a scope - simplest way, if you have access to a range where you can shoot all the distances; is to go out, zero at 100m and set your scope dials to zero, and then shoot each distance and adjust your impacts on to the aim point; then write down what's set on the scope.

 

You can save time doing this if you use your scope to measure the target - and don't walk forward and use a ruler at all - rulers just confuse this.

 

The space between the crosshair and the first dot will be 10 clicks on your scope turret. The space from that dot to the next dot will be another 10 clicks.

 

So....holding your crosshair on the aimpoint; assess where you point of impact is in terms of dots. Exactly two dots low; dial 'up 20' and your next bullet should hit the aimpoint.

 

3 low....up 30 clicks.

 

and interpolate....2.3 dots low -up 23 clicks.

 

Same for left and right.

 

 

EDITED TO ADD CRITICAL PIECE: What I've described works at any and every distance - the range doesn't matter; if you adjust what you see and measure through the scope from the firing point, it will always be correct NO MATTER WHAT DISTANCE......that's how mil scopes and mil turrets work

[gbal]

HI Banus,at first the math will seem a little complex,esp as the two common systems inches/minute of angle and mils) differ,and the two scope systems-first and second focal plane-differ quite a lot.Most hunters will be more familiar with second focal plane and probably !/4 inch /moa clicks.

Remember the scope calibrations relate to inches/mms on the target,NOT to balistics (ie 3mils is NOT for 300m range,4mils for 400-look how drop increases alarmingly with distance..) A few scopes have "Bullet

Drop Compensating'reticules-but these are worked out as below and the reticule etched accordingly,and a bit limited-one bullet/one velocity etc).

But it's not too complicated to get going-or at least get on target-as Forbie and others say,you will need a decent ballistics calculator-some apps are less then £15,as the drop from any rifle/calibre varies with the velocity/bullet coefficient etc etc.Here are some representative data for 223 55g@3000,which is about 259 fps lower than many commercial loads-not a criticism but makes exact drop inches imprecise.Also zeroed at 200,so will be a little more for a 100 y zero,but will get you in the ball park-use with Forbies drop/click data,then fine tune...

 

drop/drift in inches

10mph wind 100y +1.8/1.1 200y 0/4.9 300y -8.3/11.7 400 -25.2/22.4 500y -53.7/37.6

 

don't initially worry too much about decimals,and take one click as .33 inch at 100,and twice that .66 at 200,thrice that at 300 .99 and so on .

So for 300y above,your bullet is striking 8.3" low,so you need to come up that much...and 1 click at 300 is almost one inch(.99),so come up eight clicks,( so 8 inches)and one more for the .3" so 9 clicks,should get quite close.

Write the clicks down ,and note position of elevation dial on scope,as you adjust....fiddly at first but soon you'll be using the marked mils on the scope/turret as well/instead of counting clicks.Be sure to note exactly where your zero is though on the turret,so you can return to it,we all can get lost dialling away for different distances. Whatever you use to get point of impact where you want it,don't expect an exact agreement with any calculator-close,yes exact no-as the input data from your shooting conditions will be unlikely to be an exact match.

Almost everyone who shoots at varying distance will have a chart to hand with their rifle's adjustments on it- very few can remember them all-and 25y/less increments are quite common too.FFP does allow consistent options for ranging if you know the size of the target (eg a man) but ranging is far better done error free with a lazer rangefinder.Then you know the distance,and you chart tells you how many clicks(or markings on your scope turret),Easy peasy.

Good luck judging the wind! But it is quite satisfying to extend well beyond the traditional live target distances,at non live targets!

Gbal

[banus02]

Thank you all, for your replies think I am starting to understand and will go out in the field and try,many thanks

[gbal]

Thank you all, for your replies think I am starting to understand and will go out in the field and try,many thanks

Good,enjoy-give 'em hell....or 256 clicks,which is what my 308 takes to get to 1000y!

Gbal

[MJR]

Where abouts in the country are you? Be much easier and a lot quicker to have an hour with an experienced mil/ffp user.

If your anywhere near me I'd be happy to show you.

 

And forget measurements - use the method described by BD to start with and an accurate chrony for MV. From there you can use a calculator and verify with your real world data or get a range card from BD. Remember rubbish in = rubbish out

[Shuggy]

Immediately -depends whether you're using 6000, 6200, 6283 or 6400 mils in your circle.......if you're using 6400 - and NATO does, you're using a system designed to work with metric maps and not your 1714 jobbie with the same mname. If you're using 6283 ...well no one involved in the professional application of fire does; so it's just you ...so your NATO 0.1milrad is actually two hundreths of a cm less than you think at 100m - but that's close enough for government work

Excellent! 'Good enough for government work' is a phrase that I use a lot.

 

You are absolutely right that just about every military uses 6400 (except the Russians I think). I'm pretty sure that every PMII scope is calibrated to 6400 mils - not that we could really tell the difference. On artillery guns however it would make a big difference.

[Missed]

I despair at the way many manage to overcomplicate this basic skill, especially so our cousins across the pond who outside the military appear to despise anything that appears 'metric'. There is an old saying: Keep it simple, stupid. Why? Well under stress, the simpler an action is the less chance of buggering it up. Listen to BD, apply what he has described and you cannot go far wrong. There is, after all, a very good reason those whose lives depend on getting it right under stress use this system or a system very similar.

[gbal]

Belt and/or braces for skinning a cat.

After the battle of Gettysburg,some 200 muskets were picked up,which had been loaded more than 5 times-one was loaded x21-without being fired.

Psychologists,among others,have studied the effects of stress in some detail (the G example is from Loftus 'Eye witness Testimony").

Winston `Churchill,recalling his younger days claimed "There is nothing so exciting,as to be fired upon to no purpose"-though he didn't think to check the accuracy of his pistol at the time.

Thankfully though,most of us can sight in rifles under less stressful conditions.(and preferably before any such combat conditons apply.)

There are some variations of course-and each method has some pros and cons.I use both-check splash,and adjust(or just use the mil dot nearest splash;but also fairly accurate measurement of POI and scope dial adjustments(probably advisable for initial zeroing in any case).

Fine,I would not want to shoot any competition for score using 1/2moa or less bull/rings,but this is generally beyond what is 'good enough for government work' (what a useful phrase).

When shooting at electronic falling men (about 40'x18"?),and 'down' is the criterion,ultimate accuracy is not necessary-any hit will do. Actually,with a 200 or more zero,no real adjustment is mandatory out to say 500y-though 'up a bit' does no harm as distance increases.(500 zero is my preference,usually,leaving more moas for more distant targets. So,firing and noting splash to the nearest (halF) mil dot,eg,will do nicely-tho' not strictly necessary. I often don't adjust at all and just remember that eg 600y is second mil dot up.Whatever.

Where it breaks down is when you can't see bullet splash,or holes in the paper target- so can't make any informed adjustment (with any method)-OK on a range with maybe a 10x10 metre sand splash,but with an electronic target in thick bracken?If you can't see it,you can't adjust it!.There is also some loss of precision-at say 500y,splashes will be varying, 2moa would mean 10 inches,and you have to locate the centre of this string of shots. Good enough,yes -for govt work.

 

OK,main point is there are some options,and it's worth having the alternatives in reserve,when they are not complex.Good shooting!

Gbal

[Missed]

To add to BDs instructions, ORAC the god of gunnery is your man