How Accurate are AR .223's to Bolt action .223

[achosenman]

Not bad indeed for a (custom/semi custom?) AR.

 

It does indicate that an AR can shoot into a reasonably small group. However it also indicates that it is still twice the size of a standard Sako.

 

A figure 11/12 can't tell the difference though

 

ATB

[farmer7]

Not bad indeed for a (custom/semi custom?) AR.

 

It does indicate that an AR can shoot into a reasonably small group. However it also indicates that it is still twice the size of a standard Sako.

 

A figure 11/12 can't tell the difference though

 

ATB

Yes but maybe I'm half the shot you are with a military trigger three times the weight. Besides I didnt have fancy target sticker dots thingies to shoot at.

[achosenman]

No you had a high contrast 1 inch aiming square, not any different from a high contrast I inch aiming circle.

 

The trigger was standard on the Sako as was everything else. AFAIK the trigger is part of the rifle and therefore counts as is

 

Funnily enough I just read the accuracy spec for the "standard AR"...it's 4 MOA .

 

The OP question was

how accurate AR's are in comparison to regular .223 bolt action rifles

 

 

Answer... A good AR will shoot very well depending on your requirements and could suite your needs. However If you want the to hit tiny targets at extended range a good BA rifle will serve you better.

 

ATB

[bradders]

No you had a high contrast 1 inch aiming square, not any different from a high contrast I inch aiming circle.

 

The trigger was standard on the Sako as was everything else. AFAIK the trigger is part of the rifle and therefore counts as is

 

Funnily enough I just read the accuracy spec for the "standard AR"...it's 4 MOA .

 

The OP question was

 

Answer... A good AR will shoot very well depending on your requirements and could suite your needs. However If you want the to hit tiny targets at extended range a good BA rifle will serve you better.

 

ATB

You mean with Milspec iron sights and ball ammo?

Do you have a link we could look at to verify this.

 

You're comparing apples to bananas.

You've posted a "look what my rifle can do" group.

Farmer7 has posted a "look what my rifle has just done`` pic.

Both with different bullets and conditions.

 

It's hard to say how representative both groups are in relation to the rifle in question, but as they say, "every once in a while even a blind dog finds the ball"

[Offroad Gary]

Gents- what other cartridges can the ar platform support? Im sure alan wey had one in .204 at the quarry once. Are they available in anything else??

[Strangely Brown]

Certainly available in 7.62mm Gary, aka AR10.

 

Can anybody tell me how the Tubb's 2000K differs from the AR action?? Surely if it's similar it puts the whole argument on it's head??

[achosenman]

bradders you obviously have thing for military type rifles.

 

I posted a group from a standard factory rifle in response to a question. I know there are thousands of similar groups around from similar out the box, bog standard BA rifles. Some will be a lot better than those I posted. Nothing personal or bragging about my marksmanship, how can there be? it's not hard. It is as is, I never made the rifle so can't take any credit for its accuracy. Owning it does not make me irresistible to women, devastatingly hansom or filthy rich. Whether you like it or not, an AR, unless modified is unlikely to beat a competent BA rifle from the benchrest. However a different matter in a different scenario.

 

The AR platform is a good modular system designed for a job. The fact that 101 companies are now selling tricked up versions attest to how well the design worked. As Farmer 7 proved, they shoot. But owning one will not make the shooter a converter of virgins, slayer of dragons and an all round good egg so I don't understand your apparent offence just because it's not the last word in precision riflecraft.

 

I gather you like to shoot the kind of competitions that replicate a military type engagement...fair play, each to their own. Doing that sort of thing the AR makes sense. Picking off a crow at 500m off the top of the Land Rover, not so much.

 

Chill

 

ATB

[bradders]

Certainly available in 7.62mm Gary, aka AR10.

 

Can anybody tell me how the Tubb's 2000K differs from the AR action?? Surely if it's similar it puts the whole argument on it's head??

The Tubb (not Tubbs, he was a character in Miami Vice) rifle is a conventional bolt action rifle, albeit built in a straight-line configuration, in much the same way tube (not Tubb or Tubbs) rifles are built.

This is to replicate the characteristics of AR15 style rifles and recoil management.

 

As for calibres, let's see:

On a .223 bolt face

.223, .222, .204, .20 Practical/Tac, .300 Blackout/Whisper

On a 7.62x39 bolt face

7.62x39, 5.45x39, 6 & 22PPC, 6mmAR, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 6mm Hagar, 6mm WOA, .30 Remington, 6BR (with rebated rim), 6mm Tall Dog.

It's also possible to build on a 308 bolt face, but those bolts are hard to come by.

In most cases all you will need is a different Mag, but some of the bigger cased rds can have extraction problems

 

Anyway, that's enough to go on for now

[bradders]

bradders you obviously have thing for military type rifles.

 

I posted a group from a standard factory rifle in response to a question. I know there are thousands of similar groups around from similar out the box, bog standard BA rifles. Some will be a lot better than those I posted. Nothing personal or bragging about my marksmanship, how can there be? it's not hard. It is as is, I never made the rifle so can't take any credit for its accuracy. Owning it does not make me irresistible to women, devastatingly hansom or filthy rich. Whether you like it or not, an AR, unless modified is unlikely to beat a competent BA rifle from the benchrest. However a different matter in a different scenario.

 

The AR platform is a good modular system designed for a job. The fact that 101 companies are now selling tricked up versions attest to how well the design worked. As Farmer 7 proved, they shoot. But owning one will not make the shooter a converter of virgins, slayer of dragons and an all round good egg so I don't understand your apparent offence just because it's not the last word in precision riflecraft.

 

I gather you like to shoot the kind of competitions that replicate a military type engagement...fair play, each to their own. Doing that sort of thing the AR makes sense. Picking off a crow at 500m off the top of the Land Rover, not so much.

 

Chill

 

ATB

On the contrary, you came here to say your bolt gun was better accuracy wise, the rest of us say maybe not so.

Shooting is shooting and Farmer7 said his AR shoots, whereas you posted "but my Sako shoots better"

 

I'm not a crow shooter, not my thing, but to say your Sako is better because it's a Sako, and bog standard to boot is a bit disingenuous.

Farmers gun has a 18" med weight hammer forged barrel, mounted on a CMMG lower with a screw to take most of the creep out of the trigger.

The barrel is floated but that's it. Hardly "custom".

The fact it has a short hammered barrel, a std trigger with a sear cheat and an upper and lower that conveniently go together, and is shooting bullets that are less conducive to iddy biddy groups than yours, yet has shot a group today that is not that different to one of your best groups, leads me to believe his rifle is actually better than yours, and he's a better shot too :-)

[andybrock]

"Picking off a crow at 500m off the top of the Land Rover"

 

 

I'd be worried about hitting the land rover

 

[sako 75 .243]

 

hi Rob

the AR I got from bradders is stupid accurate,the first five shots I put though it 18mm at 100....next five shots 24mm at 200....and that's me pulling the trigger ....I would love to see what it can do in the hands of someone that can really shoot

Forgot to say that was using 75gn hornady tap......not handloads

[sako 75 .243]

"Picking off a crow at 500m off the top of the Land Rover"

 

 

I'd be worried about hitting the land rover

 

[achosenman]

I'm sorry mate I have not said its better because its a Sako. I said BA rifles tend to be more accurate than AR's.

 

I know nothing of Farmer or his gun. I'm sure he could outshoot me every day of the week, but that's not unusual and I'm old enough to not care nor start down that line of debate.

 

The .47 group was not an illustration of one of the best groups from the Sako, far from it. The best was in the .1's but that was not relevant to this question, it was what is generally more accurate, not what is the best you have ever got so I included a so so group to demonstrate the "warts an all" when things are just average.

 

Custom means not standard. The AR comes in standard format, originally from Colt when they got it from Armalite. Levels of customisation are just that, but still custom.

 

I am not going to get into a slagging match but you keep moving the goalposts. The rifle is a complete unit, you can't cherry pick the bits you like then try to discount the bits that screw things up. If a platform becomes inaccurate due to a lousy trigger, short barrel etc. then its still inaccurate, no matter the cause.

 

What bullet is not conducive to tiny groups?

 

I thought all opinions were welcome, not just those that agree with your viewpoint.

 

The only way to know is to stick a selection of rifles into a return to battery rest and pull the trigger. That should remove all doubt but then who cares, really? The OP will know what he wants and will get it and be happy.

 

ATB

[achosenman]

"Picking off a crow at 500m off the top of the Land Rover"

 

 

I'd be worried about hitting the land rover

 

 

How would I know?

[bradders]

I'm sorry mate I have not said its better because its a Sako. I said BA rifles tend to be more accurate than AR's.

 

I know nothing of Farmer or his gun. I'm sure he could outshoot me every day of the week, but that's not unusual and I'm old enough to not care nor start down that line of debate.

 

The .47 group was not an illustration of one of the best groups from the Sako, far from it. The best was in the .1's but that was not relevant to this question, it was what is generally more accurate, not what is the best you have ever got so I included a so so group to demonstrate the "warts an all" when things are just average.

 

Custom means not standard. The AR comes in standard format, originally from Colt when they got it from Armalite. Levels of customisation are just that, but still custom.

 

I am not going to get into a slagging match but you keep moving the goalposts. The rifle is a complete unit, you can't cherry pick the bits you like then try to discount the bits that screw things up. If a platform becomes inaccurate due to a lousy trigger, short barrel etc. then its still inaccurate, no matter the cause.

 

What bullet is not conducive to tiny groups?

 

I thought all opinions were welcome, not just those that agree with your viewpoint.

 

The only way to know is to stick a selection of rifles into a return to battery rest and pull the trigger. That should remove all doubt but then who cares, really? The OP will know what he wants and will get it and be happy.

 

ATB

Well he got the rifle from me and that's pretty much my std config of upper, so for me it is a "std" build.

Now if you're talking about a rack grade rifle, that's a different thing, and also something that really wouldn't sell here.

There's no such thing as a std rifle, just what people perceive it to be.

 

Al opinions are welcome, but don't discount one in favour of another. That's just prejudice.

 

Farmers 73gn bullets were never designed for shooting cloverleaf 100yd groups, they were designed to hold 1MOA at 200 in a 10mph wind shift.

They do that very well and also do a lot more.

The 52gn bullets were never designed to shoot tiny groups at distance, coz the wind will beat them every time.

If they were then 77's and 80's would never be used, but that's not the case.

 

There's no reason why an AR type rifle can't cut it with a bolt gun, bullet for bullet.

That's why many American companies sell Varmint models

[Jagged 77]

There's no reason why an AR type rifle can't cut it with a bolt gun, bullet for bullet.
That's why many American companies sell Varmint models

 

 

Surely there's a difference in accuracy between our UK straight pull single shot version and a semi auto?

 

Overall an Interesting debate - I know very little about the black rifle and would eventually like to own one.

[achosenman]

So we are talking about different things. Yours are all custom, they are not as Colt produced when made available to the public.

 

I assume you are talking about VLD's. I do use them, but now it is a custom rifle so not relevant to this debate. It does however shoot tiny groups at 100m so perhaps we had better agree to disagree on that and yes the chamber is also custom spec, not standard. Do you chamber your rifles for mil spec ammunition? If so, is that not just another form of customisation?

 

I have used a varmint model AR once when I stayed with friends in Houston TX, they seemed to be good for stuff to about 300yds or so and are devastating on PD's. For hitting stuff at long range, the guys still reached for the 22-250 bolt gun...along with another ice cold Coors.

 

ATB

[bradders]

Surely there's a difference in accuracy between our UK straight pull single shot version and a semi auto?

 

There is no difference

[bradders]

Surely there's a difference in accuracy between our UK straight pull single shot version and a semi auto?

 

There is no difference

So we are talking about different things. Yours are all custom, they are not as Colt produced when made available to the public.

 

I assume you are talking about VLD's. I do use them, but now it is a custom rifle so not relevant to this debate. It does however shoot tiny groups at 100m so perhaps we had better agree to disagree on that and yes the chamber is also custom spec, not standard. Do you chamber your rifles for mil spec ammunition? If so, is that not just another form of customisation?

 

I have used a varmint model AR once when I stayed with friends in Houston TX, they seemed to be good for stuff to about 300yds or so and are devastating on PD's. For hitting stuff at long range, the guys still reached for the 22-250 bolt gun...along with another ice cold Coors.

 

ATB

.22-250, now you're talking different calibres, stay on topic man!

 

Define custom. That they're all hand built with care and not thrown together on a mass production line?

Then yes is the answer.

As for chambers being custom spec, is there really such a thing? I don't think so, unless someone specifically wants a particular throat or their own reamer grinding. Neither of which has ever been asked of me.

 

Will mine shoot Milspec ammo? Yes they will, and they will do it with any chamber/reamer you wish to use.

There really is little difference between all the chambers on offer and I have used most of them, .223, .223 Wylde, 5.56, 5.56 Target, .223 AR Match (which is my chamber of choice currently, and the one on Farmers rifle)

They all shoot, some have slightly more generous dimensions than others, some were specifically designed and some come upon by chance (.223 Wylde)

None of it matters, you can take 2 barrels from the same Mfrs batch, chambered exactly the same and one will show pressure and the other won't, and no one knows why!

It just happens.

I've seen guns that are chambered in .223 Rem SAAMI shoot surplus RG all day long and have seen guns chambered in 5.56 NATO that constantly suffer extraction problems.

 

No two reamer companies 5.56 or .223 reamers are the same, so what's standard?

 

What chamber was in your Sako? Do you even know? Who's reamer was it cut with?

 

None of it matters, such as a long barrel vs short barrel, heavy vs light.

The guns either shoot or they don't.

[achosenman]

So yes you are talking custom built as opposed to production line so as someone said, a moot point really.

 

No such thing as a standard AR in the UK.

 

Do you just specialise in AR's, or do you work on turn bolts as well?

 

ATB

[bradders]

So yes you are talking custom built as opposed to production line so as someone said, a moot point really.

 

No such thing as a standard AR in the UK.

 

Do you just specialise in AR's, or do you work on turn bolts as well?

 

ATB

I do bolt guns as well, although not as many as AR's.

I do all the same bolt gun work as most of the others do.

[achosenman]

I do bolt guns as well, although not as many as AR's.

I do all the same bolt gun work as most of the others do.

 

Yep I've found your web site. TBH I think we were debating two different types of beast here. Yours look like nothing I signed out of the armoury.

 

ATB

[gbal]

I do bolt guns as well, although not as many as AR's.

I do all the same bolt gun work as most of the others do.

Are the 223 bolt guns less accurate? (insofar as like can be compared with like,wrt barrels etc,and different makes of rifle).

[Dan534]

OK, that Dan

Have we met?

 

We have plenty of people that travel that kind of distance regularly, inc a couple that frequently travel down from Cumbria.

The most popular configuration these days is an 18" barrel, float tube and collapsible stock.

 

Scopes are very much a personal choice and I don't usually make recommendations as there's too much choice

Yes that Dan. :-). There are a few so must be confusing.