TURRET PRESSES

[SteveW]

Hi guys

Recently i've been debating whether to go down the turret press route, figured it may speed up the reloading process a bit,plus leaving dies permantly set up has it's appeal, but i don't want to compromise any concentricity/accuracy.At present i use a Redding big boss with Redding competion or s type dies for all calibres, but was considering either the Harrells or Redding turret presses, any experiences, thoughts greatly appreciated.

Cheers Steve

[Ronin]

I have a Dillon RL550B and Rockchucker, plus another more specialised press on its way across the pond,

 

I get less run out with the Dillon at the moment .

 

Read into that what you will....

[Guest Doc]

Dan Newberry the American gun buff wrote some great articles for I believe Accurate Rifle in which he looked at what is actually required to produce sub1/2moa handloads.

 

He concluded that you didn't need fancy expensive comp die sets, neck turning, or arbor presses ect ect ect.

 

What was required were good cases, concise and exact load development, consistency in the reloading loading process with an attention to detail. Combined with a run out of 0.004" or less.

 

All the above can be achieve using standard die sets and a good pillar press.

 

The rest is as they say down to the nut behind the butt.

[SteveW]

I have a Dillon RL550B and Rockchucker, plus another more specialised press on its way across the pond,

 

I get less run out with the Dillon at the moment .

 

Read into that what you will....

 

Cheers guys

I'd be mighty interested to learn more about your latest aquisition. I have no experience of the Dillon's, but if i understand correctly they basically do everything apart from prime the case, might even do that as well ?? How do you find the powder throwing in it ? How do you check your runout ? I bought a Bersin tool a couple of years ago which i use to check a couple of calibres, which i can even use to rectify excessive runout, even on factory stuff !!!

Cheers Steve

[Andrew]

I have a pair of turret presses I use for handgun only. My serious rifle loading is done one cartridge at a time on a single stage press. Who are we kidding? Die set up takes about 30 seconds. That's why they supply them with those nice little locking rings! ~Andrew

[baldie]

Hi Steve. i run two rockchukka,s for rifle loads, and a dillon 550 for .44magnum, which requires a case popping in one side, and a bullet in the other, pull the handle, and you have a loaded round. I use a 650, with an auto case feeder in the shop, and all that requires is a bullet popping on the case top, at a certain point, and a pull of the handle, for a loaded round.It easily does 400 rounds an hour. The dillon is virtually fully automatic, it deprimes, sizes, and reprimes, then [very accuratly , volume dispenses powder, and seats a bullet [you can also get bullet feeders now apparently].

However, this type of loading lends itself to hi volume reloading, like the pistol calibres, and .223 etc, for use in black rifle,s.The reason for this being, to use all the operations, mainly sizing etc, gou need carbide dies, to do away with having to lube cases etc. This is fine, if you dont mind dirty primer pockets, cases etc, but if you do, then all this work has to be done to the cases, before they see the dillon, which rather negates the object of the excersice. I have several mates who use one for .223 loads, with reloader 15 [it meters well] for practical rifle, but i wouldn,t load [progressivly] any rifle match ammo on it personally [but some do] Tell you what though, they are the rolls royce of presses, a machine that performs five functions in one go, you would expect to be stiff and noisy....it isn,t its like a swiss watch.

[ds1]

Hi Steve,

 

I would second what baldie says, single stage unless you need high volume.

 

One way to think of it is with a multi-station press the case is not over the centre of the ram and as the cases go into the dies on a multi station they encounter different pressures / forces for the different parts of the loading process, eg resizing requires more effort than powder dispensing - pressure on the shell holder turret will be different. It may or may not make a difference. The turret head also has play - I know because I went and wiggled have a dozen Dillon and Rcbs ones a few weeks ago, when I was looking for a new press.

 

David Tubb, uses a modified Dillon 650 the mods he explains in his book rifle shooter - well worth the read, if I needed high volume and sub 1/2 moa, I would be looking to follow his advice, otherwise I would buy another rifle instead.

 

david.

[SteveW]

Thanks Andrew, Baldie & David

Many of the reasons i probably haven't already gone down the turret press route, is as you guys have been stating volume is not vital but what is, is consistencey and accuracy, but you know boys must have toys, and i thought a premium product like the Harrell turret press would be a worthy addition, so i thought i would float the idea, but it looks like it's sinking. I have no experience of these presses and value everyones imput.

Cheers Steve

[Ronin]

My Dillon is used as a single stage, not progressive, but as the die head "floats" and I use Redding or Forster Comp Die sets, I think I get the best of both worlds.

 

Run out is typically .002" - .005" with most cartridges I load for with this set up (all are neck turned cases)

 

I use the Dillon powder measures to throw and then trickle up for small scale load batches.

 

For larger ones I use an electronic thrower.

 

The other press on the way will accept reloading dies, but is not intended for them.

[Guest Doc]

My Dillon is used as a single stage, not progressive, but as the die head "floats" and I use Redding or Forster Comp Die sets, I think I get the best of both worlds.

 

Run out is typically .002" - .005" with most cartridges I load for with this set up (all are neck turned cases)

 

I use the Dillon powder measures to throw and then trickle up for small scale load batches.

 

For larger ones I use an electronic thrower.

 

The other press on the way will accept reloading dies, but is not intended for them.

 

I agree,I think you may just have found an ideal solution by using a turret as a single stage with Comp dies.

 

I'm surprised that you are still getting 0.005" run out with neck turned cases though.

 

What electric thrower do you use.

[Ronin]

Doc thats up to .005" average runout (not .0005" / five tenthousanths), and that is with cleaned not turned to size cases in my 25-06 (which is the worst cartridge for run out I load for as its isnt a tight neck chamber)

 

Typically cases I turn to fit (tight necked) run at no more than .002".

 

Electric measure is a Lyman 1200 I throw light and then trickle then up on an Acculab Scale accurate to 2/10ths grain.

[Guest Doc]

Doc thats up to .005" average runout (not .0005" / five tenthousanths),

 

Yes I know thats what I posted

 

this might at first appear a silly question but! Are you convinced tight necks really work then?

[Ronin]

Doc

 

for a sporting rifle no.

 

I have tight necked chambers ,, "because I can" and I like accurate rifles.

 

For a long range rifle, anything that improves or assists accuracy is a must.

 

By having tight or fitted neck chambers one removes eccentricity from the neck which allows the bullet to lie in the centre of the bore.

 

The only problem is dirt ingress, but in several years of using fitted neck rifles in real crappy conditions, I have not experienced a lock up or jammed round,,,,,yet

[Guest Doc]

>I have tight necked chambers ,, "because I can" and I like accurate rifles.<

 

Thats nice for you and don't we all. I think some top target shooter once said only accurate rifles are interesting.

 

>For a long range rifle, anything that improves or assists accuracy is a must.<

 

Is the improvement really that noticeable? Or is it just one of those perceptual confidence tricks, that we are all guilty of falling for on occasions? I am yet to be convinced either way.

I think very few shooters are actually capable of taking advantage of the claimed improvement.

 

>By having tight or fitted neck chambers one removes eccentricity from the neck which allows the bullet to lie in the centre of the bore.<

 

Yes I know but is that really necessary. Give that a human, which is the greatest variable in the whole set up, does the pointing and firing?

 

It might well be a major influencing factor on what the yanks call rail guns etc but on anything hand held I think I'm in the Danny Newberry corner.

[Guest varmartin]

If you want to know if fitted necks, hand cut barrels, match chambers, bedded actions, blue printed bolts and actions and all those other perceptual confidence tricks, that we are all guilty of falling for on occasions?

 

Try what I did before getting into it...and that is ..shoot the best group you can with the best factory rifle you have , and then go and shoot a full blown custom tight neck special and see which rifle produces the tightest groups...then you will be convinced same as me...

 

Martin

[Guest Doc]

If you want to know if fitted necks, hand cut barrels, match chambers, bedded actions, blue printed bolts and actions and all those other perceptual confidence tricks, that we are all guilty of falling for on occasions?

 

Try what I did before getting into it...and that is ..shoot the best group you can with the best factory rifle you have , and then go and shoot a full blown custom tight neck special and see which rifle produces the tightest groups...then you will be convinced same as me...

 

Martin

 

One slight problem in your proposal Martin. I was discussing whether the perceived necessity for tight necks actually lived up to the perceptions. Not whether a standard factory out fit was as good as a full blown custom outfit.

 

As a point of interest is there anyone actually still hand cutting barrels? Hand lapping yes but cutting???? Blue printing is surely only required on the standard factory build projects. I'd be mightily unhappy if I had to get say a Stiller, Bat, RPA, Surgeon, Barnard etc action blue printed before commencing a rifle build

.

 

In other words I agree with you that some accuracy aiding features do work, |I'm just not convinced about others. It was not that long ago that cryogenic stress relieving was being touted as the solution to your barrel accuracy problems.

[Guest varmartin]

See your point Doc.

 

I had a Rem 700 ` blue printed ...not sure how far out of `true` it was ...as that is down to the guy behind the mike...

 

Also a good friend of mine has a Sako 75 that did not need ` blue printing` ...again was it straight and true.or did the guy behind the `mike` think it was good enough ??

 

All I know is , if you follow what the top `Bench rest boys` are doing ....maybe that proves it works ??

 

Martin

[Guest Doc]

Mart

 

The top BR boys are definately capable of wring out the ultimate performance from their kit. So any slight improvement is important to them. Be it actual or perceived.

 

That not the case with the other 99.9% of shooters. As I said earlier is the claimed improvement in accuracy between an 0.005" and a 0.002" run out for those 99.9% real? More importantly if it is real, are they actually capable of taking advantage of it?

[Guest varmartin]

I cant answer that one...as I am not sure which category I fall into ....but I would like to be in the 0.1%

 

Martin

[Ronin]

Doc

 

for a sporting rifle, wether a chamber is tight necked or not depends on its end application - I wouldnt want a fitted neck in a dangerous game gun for obvious reasons.

 

For a deer / vermin rifle, well its all down to how much you want to tinker - if you reload for accuracy (as I do), I prefer fitted necks, turned cases and the least possible variance in anything - that way if I miss, I know it isnt my rifle.

 

It isnt necessary, but I prefer a fitted neck.

 

Blueprinting is not required on custom actions such as Surgeon, BAT, BArnard RPA etc, I believe the least required when rebarreling a factor action such as a Tikka, Sako, Remington etc would be to cut the face of the action square so that the barrel shoulder meets at a true surface.

 

Are the benefits noticable if using neck turned cases and chambers -

 

maybe not, but the psycological advantage is definately present.

[Guest Doc]

Doc

 

for a sporting rifle, wether a chamber is tight necked or not depends on its end application - I wouldnt want a fitted neck in a dangerous game gun for obvious reasons.

 

For a deer / vermin rifle, well its all down to how much you want to tinker - if you reload for accuracy (as I do), I prefer fitted necks, turned cases and the least possible variance in anything - that way if I miss, I know it isnt my rifle.

 

It isnt necessary, but I prefer a fitted neck.

 

Blueprinting is not required on custom actions such as Surgeon, BAT, BArnard RPA etc, I believe the least required when rebarreling a factor action such as a Tikka, Sako, Remington etc would be to cut the face of the action square so that the barrel shoulder meets at a true surface.

 

Are the benefits noticable if using neck turned cases and chambers -

 

maybe not, but the psycological advantage is definately present.

 

I'd not want tight necks on any rifle used for dangerous game or in adverse hunting conditions either.

 

So are you saying that the improved accuracy associated with fitted necks are on the most past for the average shot (i.e. the 99.9% of us) primarily psychological, coupled with the necessity to tinker and pay strict attention to you handloading. Which is as we all know the first and last requirement for wringing out the maximum performance from any rifle.

 

Which is more or less what Dan Newberry has stated in his article.

[Ronin]

Doc

 

handloading is only a part of the requirements for accuracy (as I am sure you are aware)

 

It is of no value to produce absolutely consistant ammunition and fire it in a worn out barrel for example, there ammunition would possibly provide consistant vel;ocities, but the accuracy would not be there because the means of delivery is worn out.

 

I trust you understand the analogy.

 

I am not familiar with the Dan Newbury article, but one has to look at the rifle, scope, mounts and ammunition as a whole, to get the very best out of it as any one part (including the nut behind the bolt) can let the system fall down.

 

I am not saying that you NEED to have a custom rifle or handloaded ammunition in order to shoot any of the UK quarry species.

 

If however you want to extract the utmost performance from your equipment, it certainly helps though to remove the variables which may cause accuracy to suffer.

[Guest Doc]

Doc

 

handloading is only a part of the requirements for accuracy (as I am sure you are aware)

 

It is of no value to produce absolutely consistant ammunition and fire it in a worn out barrel for example, there ammunition would possibly provide consistant vel;ocities, but the accuracy would not be there because the means of delivery is worn out.

 

I trust you understand the analogy.

 

I am not familiar with the Dan Newbury article, but one has to look at the rifle, scope, mounts and ammunition as a whole, to get the very best out of it as any one part (including the nut behind the bolt) can let the system fall down.

 

I am not saying that you NEED to have a custom rifle or handloaded ammunition in order to shoot any of the UK quarry species.

 

If however you want to extract the utmost performance from your equipment, it certainly helps though to remove the variables which may cause accuracy to suffer.

 

Of course I am aware of the variables. But I'm sure you would agree that they only amount to a fraction of the whole. I do understand your analogy.

 

Obviously in order to focus on just one aspect of the equation in our case the perceived necessity for tight necks as far as sub1/2" MOA is concerned we have to accept the other parameters are a given.

 

Thanks for the sensible discussion. Apologies to (sorry I cant recall your name) for hijacking your turret press thread.

 

Doc