Which Calibre/Bullet would be less effected by wind?

[walkabout]

We were shooting on Saturday at Millpool, Bodmin Moor in Cornwall...COLD (as usual)!!!!

It was also a little windy 8-9mph gusting 12mph coming in at 90 degrees to the targets.

Up to 400 yards .233, .243, 6.5x47L, 6.5x55, .308/7.62 were all performing pretty much equally.

But at 600 the smaller but faster calibres were being blown off at random in the gusts compared to the 6.5x55, .308/7.62's with 150gn plus.

I understand basic ballistics so I understand why, but it was so telling that the lighter newer bullets though faster were being effected by the wind.

So...if you were shooting a lot of the time in the wind, what calibre and bullet weight would be the choice to 600 yardish?

 

 

 

 

[tackb]

50cal with 750g Amax

[walkabout]

tackb

Please don't post a reply like that...I spilt my glass of Red!

Although it's probably the right calibre/bullet combination in any wind!

[Laurie]

I'd strongly recommend getting a copy of 'Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting 2nd edition' by Bryan Litz. It comes with Bryan's Point Mass Ballistic Solver 2.0 software. You can model any combination of the ~200 bullets whose data are contained in the reference sections and MV as well as giving a real insight into how rifle bullet ballistics work at long ranges.

 

You might be surprised at some of the results. For instance the Berger 90gn 0.224" VLD at MVs available from a long-barrelled .223 Rem will outperform any .308 Win 155gn load from an equivalent barrel length rifle in the wind and in terms of retained velocity at 1K (but not 308 with a good 185-230gn bullet).

 

So far as the basic question goes, a good (ballistics that is) 7mm will beat a good 6.5 will beat a good 6mm. .30 with the best of today's bullets will be somewhere up with the seven and above the 6.5 but at the cost of a lot of powder and recoil as it needs something in the 300WSM or SAUM case size bracket to produce the necessary MV.

[Wabbitslayer]

.950 JDJ, 3600 grain bullet at just over 38,500 ft lbs should be a good wind cheating round. Mind your shoulder though cos that's gonna hurt. LOL.

[Wildcat69]

Hey I was there on sat and I was shooting 22-250 with 52gr a-max at 600 yards. I managed to shoot 38.1v out 50. Reading the wind is the first step to better scoring then rest follows.

 

On that day the gust dropped very low and if you are patient enough like Andy did, he shot 45.1v with his Howa 308. At that moment it doesn't really matter how heavy the bullets is how good you get the wind right.

 

Did you shoot the aggregate at the end?

[Wildcat69]

But yea a heavier bullet would have been nicer! Lol but have to be honest I was blown all over the place.

[Brillo]

We were shooting on Saturday at Millpool, Bodmin Moor in Cornwall...COLD (as usual)!!!!

It was also a little windy 8-9mph gusting 12mph coming in at 90 degrees to the targets.

Up to 400 yards .233, .243, 6.5x47L, 6.5x55, .308/7.62 were all performing pretty much equally.

But at 600 the smaller but faster calibres were being blown off at random in the gusts compared to the 6.5x55, .308/7.62's with 150gn plus.

I understand basic ballistics so I understand why, but it was so telling that the lighter newer bullets though faster were being effected by the wind.

So...if you were shooting a lot of the time in the wind, what calibre and bullet weight would be the choice to 600 yardish?

 

Hey buddy. I come from that neck of the woods and my family still live in Launceston whom I visit regularly. I had no idea there was a range on Bodmin Moor. Do you have range dates and a name I could contact? I could then plan my next visit with a shooting session. The post code would also be handy.

Many thanks

[Wildcat69]

You can contact Rob Manfield. rob@forda-farm.co.uk. We are shooting every third Saturday of the month at Millpool.

 

[Tiff]

If your thinking of a new caliber at all for Millpoool, unless it has changed in the last year of so, it was limited to 4,500j a few years ago. Meaning anything much above 6.5-284 or a medium speed 7mm isn't allowed.

 

Otherwise I'd be down there with Tamar Rangers and my 30-338LM, with 240MK's at 2,900fps - works wanders in the wind...

 

 

[onehole]

Basically as I understand it?? it all comes down to BC and velocity? If you want a level playing field and man to man competiton thats easy just put in the necessary rules.

If you want an open book comp then it becomes an equipment {£} race??

[gbal]

Basically as I understand it?? it all comes down to BC and velocity? If you want a level playing field and man to man competiton thats easy just put in the necessary rules.

If you want an open book comp then it becomes an equipment {£} race??

And these rules would be.....?

You are right about the equipment race,but ballistic constraints don't really achieve a level playing field,as rifles just vary in their intrinsic accuracy,and spending money on them usually pays admittedly diminishing returns,but does buy advantage over those who don't "invest" so much.

Gbal

[The Gun Pimp]

Basically as I understand it?? it all comes down to BC and velocity? If you want a level playing field and man to man competiton thats easy just put in the necessary rules.

If you want an open book comp then it becomes an equipment {£} race??

 

 

The mythical 'level playing field' - is that what the F/TR class was supposed to achieve over Open Class? Unfortunately, it costs the same to build a competitive FTR rifle as it does to build a world class benchrest rifle.

 

When everyone is shooting the same cartridge, it becomes even more difficult to get an 'edge' so, serious FTR competitors do more testing - with different bullets and powders (thus wearing out barrels), spend more money on equipment (like bi-pods and March scopes) change brass more often etc.

 

It would be interesting to hear your 'necessary rules' Onehole!

[kent]

 

The mythical 'level playing field' - is that what the F/TR class was supposed to achieve over Open Class? Unfortunately, it costs the same to build a competitive FTR rifle as it does to build a world class benchrest rifle.

 

When everyone is shooting the same cartridge, it becomes even more difficult to get an 'edge' so, serious FTR competitors do more testing - with different bullets and powders (thus wearing out barrels), spend more money on equipment (like bi-pods and March scopes) change brass more often etc.

 

It would be interesting to hear your 'necessary rules' Onehole!

 

Of course its impossible to get that level playing field unless we all shoot the exact same rig, in the same calibre. Range time will still pay but that's the way with all sports. I bet even if this was done you would get people buying a lot of different rifles to find which shot best like they used to with the early military sniper rifles

[gbal]

Of course its impossible to get that level playing field unless we all shoot the exact same rig, in the same calibre. Range time will still pay but that's the way with all sports. I bet even if this was done you would get people buying a lot of different rifles to find which shot best like they used to with the early military sniper rifles[/qute]

 

Isn't human nature wonderful -being pleased because they had the best equipment,rather than best skill.

So it's just one rifle and a long queue to use it,with issued ammo.

Can't see it being too popular,even if it might be a fairly level playing field!

Gbal

[onehole]

Necessary rules,,,,mmmmm,,, apologies didn,t give that too much thought at the time of posting and as I don,t do FTR not sure of existing rules,,,,,,but what about in addition to a specific calibre allowed one restricts barrel length,,,,max scope mag 12X and no hard point rifle rests,,,,just a bean bag or similar perhaps.I guess its all gone to far to change much now so I will bow out but I do think restrictions could have been better implemented at the beginning.

[gbal]

Necessary rules,,,,mmmmm,,, apologies didn,t give that too much thought at the time of posting and as I don,t do FTR not sure of existing rules,,,,,,but what about in addition to a specific calibre allowed one restricts barrel length,,,,max scope mag 12X and no hard point rifle rests,,,,just a bean bag or similar perhaps.I guess its all gone to far to change much now so I will bow out but I do think restrictions could have been better implemented at the beginning.

 

Ok-it'shonest to admit not much thought,but lots have tried rules,and none can prevent equipment racing though some slow it but that won't do.

Which barrel -cheap factory or expensive custom,which will shoot better likewise chambering(tight neck will often help) .

El Cheepo plastic scope or March,both same mag

Are all bean bags equal?

I'm not being critical just indicating how hard it is to do;some rules help but

they are essentially arbitrary,and do very little for level playing field,by no means obviously desirable in most competitive sport

Field shooting is one alternative,of course luck then comes in big time.

I think we just have to live with it,and have a realistic sense of appreciation for the best shots,who do bring real skill too.

Enjoy!

 

Gbal

 

 

 

[Laurie]

Necessary rules,,,,mmmmm,,, apologies didn,t give that too much thought at the time of posting and as I don,t do FTR not sure of existing rules,,,,,,but what about in addition to a specific calibre allowed one restricts barrel length,,,,max scope mag 12X and no hard point rifle rests,,,,just a bean bag or similar perhaps.I guess its all gone to far to change much now so I will bow out but I do think restrictions could have been better implemented at the beginning.

 

 

The original raison d'etre of F-Class was to allow Target Rifle shooters to continue in their sport if they became too frail to hold a 13lb rifle on their elbows with sling supprt only, and/or eyesight deterioration stopped them shooting with traditional iron sights. It was seen as 'an old man's TR discipline'. TR and its international Fullbore and Palma Rifle disciplines have always been single shot precision disciplines which although shot at any range from 200 yards up are really geared to the 1,000 yard line - that's the key distance in national and international level matches. Shooting any cartridge at 800 yards and above requires meeting certain ballistic criteria, the key one being the bullet remaining above the speed of sound at the target, better still above the top end of the transonic zone, 1.2 MACH or ~1,360 fps - and that needs certain minimum specifications in kit, primarily long barrels. 30-32-inches has been the norm since TR started up in the UK in 1968, nearly a half century ago.

 

F-Class quickly moved on from the old man's TR to being a long-range precision discipline in its own right attracting many younger shooters who want to shoot at long ranges, but were never attracted by heavy leather shooting jackets, slings, and particularly iron sights. It also quickly became the rifle and ammo development discipline where people of an innovative bent could - and did - experiment. Many critics of F regard this aspect as the 'root of all evil' that in their view afflicts the discipline. If they ever shoot a Berger Hybrid, or even the .308" 185gn LRBT 'Juggernaut' , they ought to be careful about engaging brain before opening mouth. These and many other high efficiency bullets in 6.5mm, 7mm, and .30 almost certainly wouldn't exist without F-Class. It has provided the spur to take ammo performance to new levels. Likewise, I doubt if many of the new rifle actions around would be here without 'F', and the discipline has kept the pressures up on quality barrelmakers too.

 

After two or three years, it became obvious that the original single-class 'any calibre' F discipline meant that many cartridges, including the ICFRA sponsored .223 Rem and .308 Win were becoming totally outclassed by 6.5s, later 7s, so F/TR was introduced restricted to those two cartridges - not as a cheap 'starter' sub-class, but as a discipline in its own right. As target sizes were being drastically scaled down from those used by TR / Fullbore sling shooters (F-Class target rings only have 25% of the area of their FB/TR equivalents), this actually created a harder environment for the shooter than F-Class - 223 Rem and .308 Win are marginal cartridges for a one-MOA 'Bull' at 900 and 1,000 yards unless both rifle and ammo are optimised for it. As a result, F/TR has grown much faster than full-blown 'F' in recent years, and not because it is cheaper - as Gun Pimp and others point out, it's not except in so far as a highly stressed 308's barrel might last 2,000-2,500 rounds while a 7WSM loaded to the limit sees 600-1,000 rounds.

 

There IS a level playing field for F/TR - it's called the ICFRA (International Confederation of Fullbore Rifle Associations) rulebook and the national shooting organisations' own rules based on them. Everybody shoots to the same rules - if your rifle and ammo don't comply you're DQ'd. if you don't like the rules, lobby the NRA to pressure ICFRA ..... or find another discipline that suits you better. Historic Arms for instance is MUCH cheaper, uses 'real rifles', sometimes allows sometimes doesn't allow sling support, and doesn't allow optical sights, historic sniper rifles aside. Others have attempted to set up a Sporting Rifle version limited to factory sporters and Harris type bi-pods as an 'unofficial discipline', so far with very limited success and participation. If it becomes popular and spreads across the land, it'll undoubtedly be adopted as an official discipline in due course, that's how both F disciplines started after all. Whether it's cheap is another matter - what if S-Class shooters find a rare and very expensive SAKO is unbeatable? Limiting scope power to 12X likely sees some people buy into specialised S&B or March scopes originally designed for military snipers etc, etc. People will always strive to have the best kit. In reality, once people have good enough kit, it comes down to shooting skill, especially reading the wind.

 

Go onto the GBFCA and AccurateShooter websites and search 'Russell Simmonds', the quiet spoken young westcountryman who is the reigning World F/TR champion, and has been in the GB league top pair of F/TR placings for the last six years. His rifle and bi-pod spec are pretty basic, but with good components well gunsmithed (Neil McKillop), his scope is good but at the cheap end of the long-range spectrum, an 8-32X56 Sightron Series 3, and he runs it at 16-20X in most matches. At least half of the rifles, sporting or tactical, featured on this website have higher specs and would cost you more than Russell's, all of the S&B scopes and increasingly, the March tactical / sniper / sporting scopes increasingly favoured by non F shooting forum members cost twice Russell's Sightron, three times as much in some cases. His bi-pod is less sophisticated and a third of the price of the Atlas folder that tactical shooting forum members rave about. Russell is World Champion because he has skill and determination and works incredibly hard at his sport, just like any world class athlete, cyclist, rower.

 

FWIW I've been developing 'cheap' rifles for the F/TR clubman under 'The affordable F/TR rifle' concept, taking the new price of a Remy 700 PSS or VS as the upper cost limit and have taken top second to 4th F/TR places in club matches at Diggle to date with a 223 Savage. I'll be doing more on this once the F-Class 'Worlds' are out of the way this August, but anybody who can afford to shoot can afford to compete in F/TR especially in the 200-600 yard matches. These fforts can be found in older issues of TargetShooter online in the archived issues

 

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/

 

Has it silenced the critics - well you got to get real here. Whingers don't want to see reasons not to whinge and get out and do things. It's much easier to say, I'd beat Russell Simmonds if only .....

[gbal]

Thanks,Laurie.Though rules do not really ensure a level equipment domain,anymore than FIFA produces football clones.Adopting Hawkeye though helps.You,others and myself have outlined some of the reasons already.

I've also outlined some of the human nature issues and the relevant psychological concepts briefly in another thread.They are all consistent.What does remain is that some shooters are just plain better than others,and the gap isn't that small sometimes,and will bridge some minor inferiority of equipment.Nor will top gear substitute entirely for such skill.The "whingers" will need their (ir) rationalisations awhiles yet.What can be done of course is buy some better gear,hence part of the affliction with the latest "must have",and that is fine but skill can't be bought in the same way,though extensive practice does cost money.

I am fairly confident that those whose attitudes and values really matter know this well enough,and exhibit considerable tolerance to and for those who still self-delude.And give their advice impartially and honestly,in a quite selfless way.

I might even do it myself,if I had all the top psychological gear.

 

Gbal